Re: Iris Genetics
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Iris Genetics
  • From: i*@aim.com
  • Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:49:43 -0500
 I'm not sure what you mean by "uninhibited anthocyanin"

When Ae is involved, some patterns can be masked, such as plicata. I have a
number os such "black" and "Red" plicata genotypes that are solid colour.

Generally any cartenoid adds to colour so it appears differently. These are
cumulative effects, not gene interactions. A light pink will not add as much
to a the overall colour apearance as a dark pink will. The falls of Staring
are Ae plus anthocyanin? over a dark pink ground.?

Ae? plus anthocyanin over white is dark purple. Ae? over dark yellow produces
black.

Hopefully this answers your questions.

Chuck Chapman





-----Original Message-----
From: christian foster <flatnflashy@yahoo.com>
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 9:14 pm
Subject: Re: [iris] iris DIGEST V1 #1024




Cindy,

Whew... you are enthusiastic.  I like it.  But pause, and find the posts about
the AVI packets before you hang your hat on that bicolor theory.  Of course, I
may be misreading your enthusiasm..

Don't worry about editing my ladders with 4 or 5 tiers... I didn't know the
rules.. I was guessing.

Chuck, can you add more thoughts about the interrelationships of patterns.  I
had it in my head that certain patterns/pigments would mask others.  Like
maybe
uninhibited anthocyanin would mask any pink even if it was genetically strong
enough to express or a fully inhibited anthocyanin would fail to express any
plicata family pattern.  Just confirm or clarify these notions with a few
examples.  It doesn't really matter... but this ladder discussion is reminding
me of a parakeet genetics page I once viewed... that page clearly outlined how
some patterns/pigments would mask others.  Now... now I'm also thinking of the
color genetics of dog breeds that have the merle gene, or tri color patterns
or
something... a dog could be a red tricolor, but you couldn't necisarily tell
that individual from a red self just by looking...  All I can say is my
brain's
pinging, maybe if we explore a little more... whatever is in that microwave
will
get cooked.

Christian





________________________________
From: Cindy Servis <iceboxrabbitry@hotmail.com>
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 7:37:06 PM
Subject: RE: [iris] iris DIGEST V1 #1024

With rabbits each letter represents a "series" but
they do interact with each other...how it was explained to me is that the C
series controls how many units of red and black are in the coat.



C full color has all of the pigments.  (5 black and 4 red) (I think...it
could be 5 black and 4 red

cchd chin dark has (5 black and 2 red)

cchl chin light has (2 black and 2 red)

ch himi has 2 black and 0 red

c has all of the black pigment removed from the coat and from the eyes
turning
the eyes red (so 0 black and 0 red).



A cc albino animal can be genetically any color that isn't in this c
series...black, blue, chocolate, lilac, castor, opal, torte etc.  Albino
only MASKS color, it doesn't obliterate the genetics of color in rabbits.




The C series also affects how the agouti, self and tan rabbits look.  a
cchd self black looks like a seal, it turns a self black to sable with cchl,
and turns a self black to himi...but with agouti, it turns the chin dark to
chinchilla, the chin light to a sable chin, the himi is an agouti himi, and
the
white...of course is albino no matter what the animal is other wise (with the
exception of any of the other dominant C genes).



I raise sable points...which are aa BB cchl_ DD ee  They are actually a
torted sable if you compare this to the genetic ladder of dominance.  Each
gene in each alphabetical series is separate tho...They aren't more or less
dominant from A to Z...it's just that they are each separately listed with
the
strongest on top and the weakest or most recessive on the bottom but only
within it's series.  Cchd can affect agouti...but it doesn't change the
fact that the rabbit IS an agouti.



Chuck states that the tangerine colors are very subtle to detect the
differences in.  The same is true with the C series.

aa BB CC full color is hard to tell from a aa BB cchdcchd
a cchl cchl is hard to tell from a cchl (ch or c).  (unless you really know
what you are looking at...the cchd _ and cchl cchl are VERY hard to tell
apart.   The ch and c are pretty apparent and different from the rest.


When we are unsure of a gene, we leave the blank space until we test breed to
see what the color gene is an agouti would be A_ until we bred it to a self
and
got either agouti, tan or self.  Then we change the line to what it
carries hidden.  If we bred to a self and got agouti and otters, the
animal would be Aat and if we bred to self and got only self and agouti it
would be Aa.



People used to think that the C series was "partially dominant" as
well...but it turns out that it is just the mix of genes that caused the
appearance.  Such as cchdcchd being darker than a cchdcchl or a
cchdc  I won't say that this is what is happening with irises...because I
have heard of partial dominance in other species before.  :)



Chuck states that:

Where you can get shaddings of different blue is where you have Ae

(anthocyanin enhancement gene, the gene that seems to be responsible for

anthocyanin vascular intrusions) in various combinations with 'I'. 'I" is
only

partially dominant over 'Ae' so you do get various shades of blue. I also

suspect that thiis is how you get the whites or near whites with dark blue

beards. This is likely one Ae and several 'I" genes in combination.



I immediately thought that the whites with dark blue beards may be a result of
the bicolor gene.  The irises with white on the top and any other color on the
bottom.  The base color would be a white and yellow flower which makes the
blue more intense...but this was only my own observation...and I didn't know
how "on" it was.

In looking at different irises it appeared to me that the only colors affected
in the bicolor would turn the top of the yellow flower white, or the top of a
purple or blue or orange flower white.  Other colors could be applied over the
top of it due to genetics...but never yellow on the top with that particular
mutation.  The top could be turned blue or red or etc...but not yellow.  I am
not saying this is correct...but it was just the impression I got when
comparing irises. Many that appear to have a bicolor gene, aren't classified
as a "bicolor" because they aren't pure white on top due to the addition of
another color.  I also saw yellow topped flowers with other colors on the
bottom so can't really explain this any further.



When painting with an airbrush, colors are applied in transparent layers that
are separated by clear.  Imagine taking a white based flower, put on a layer
of clear, then put on blue.  There's a blue self.  With the Bicolor gene, you
start with

a yellow flower, cover the bottom with mask and paint white on the top (or
remove the yellow from the top) and then another layer of clear, then paint
blue over the entire flower which would turn the top light blue and the bottom
a shade of purple.

Same thing goes for applying red over it instead of blue which would turn the
top pink, and the bottom orange.  Just an observation, I don't claim to be
correct. I will do a series of digital paintings or watercolor paintings to
illustrate this idea someday.  I want to do it anyway, to help it make sense
to me too.  LOL.



A bicolor with a yellow top...appears to be a solid yellow flower with
something that allows other colors ONLY on the falls???



Like I said...I was unsure about this all together.



Actually, with Tangerine...there would be 5 possibilities.



TTTT

TTTt

TTtt

Tttt

tttt



Same with the I series.



IIII Self blue appearing white

IIIi Very pale blue

IIii medium pale blue

Iiii medium blue

iiii dark blue







I see you also use an "X" to refer to a cross being done.  So a iiiixiiii
would only produce iiii babies...the only thing that would affect the color
other than this would be a gene in a different series such as plicata.



OOps...you had the 5 on the "I" but not on the T...sorry to point it out as if
both were affected.



Plicata has 4 gene possibilities...WHEW...that makes for a LOT of possible
combinations!  No wonder iris genetics are so hard to figure out!  Tonight I
am going to go on the um...pedigrees site mentioned.

Provided I can find the link again.  LOL.  Perhaps It would be easier to just
list them like this.

Ugh, can anyone tell me how to keep this from going into this wide screen
thing?  I hate reading stuff like that myself...but don't know how to change
it.  Cindy


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