Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other
- Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other
- From: a*@aol.com
- Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:14:39 -0500
In my zone 6 garden, rebloomers typically spring bloom during the last week in
April and/or the first week in May. (This is not the numbering system used in
the handbook. I'm numbering these to keep it clear in my own mind.) Also,
cross referencing with iris talk list since we are on iris photo)
1) On rare occasions plants put up late stalks. I think the AIS Judges
Handbook now calls this "Secondary Stalk Rebloomers?" I've seen some of these
but not many.
For me, they are often confused with
2) Repeat bloomers. Irises like Summer Radiance (mine) and Pure As Gold
(Maryott) often send up stalks about 6 weeks after regular bloom. Both can
also bloom in the fall. Although this one blooms in summer and late fall I do
not think it is a "whenever" as it appears (to me) to have other conditions at
work. SR bloom is directly/obviously connected to rhizome maturity. Maybe it
contains genes for both repeat and cycle rebloom.
3) Cycle Rebloomers--have a distinct fall cycle of bloom. Most of mine
(appear) to fall into this class-Bridge In Time, Another Bridge, Radiant
Bliss, etc.. I've never had July, August, or Sept bloom on these. July,
August, and Sept bloom is what I've been calling "summer" bloom.
4 & 5) Whenever & Sporadic. I lump these together because they are all
unpredictable. They do not depend on day length to trigger bloom. They can
bloom anytime from frost to frost. In my area, (zone 6) they can bloom
anytime from late June to frost. Late June is rare, and is more likely to
happen in my seedlings. My belief is that the difference in the two is found
in the modifiers or triggers, but maybe it is dependent on the strength of the
rebloom gene. Of course, the Sporadics rarely bloom here, but are such a
treat when they do.
<<Whenever rebloomers will rebloom much earlier then a Summer rebloomer.>>
Renown, Total Recall, Cantina, Violet Miracle, and many others. (5 of mine)
have all bloomed in July here. Some bloom from July thru fall freeze. July
is summer for me but I've always considered them to be in the "whenever"
group. Each year is a bit different depending on many variables. Maybe we
should call these "early whenevers?"
When you say "summer rebloomers," you are not referring to season of bloom,
but process of flower initiation. (something most of us do not see) This may
be what is confusing me. I think I would have a hard time distinguishing
"summer" bloom from "whenever" bloom in my garden.
I've read that iris stalks are initiated approximately 6 weeks after spring
bloom. (June here) If this is true for all irises, wouldn't the time of
bloom be determined by the modifiers/triggers? Normal would be spring bloom.
Rebloom might be the presence of modifiers/triggers or simply the absent of
modifiers or damaged modifiers? Just thinking out loud here.
New seedlings often bloom the first year after planting so they would have to
be planted quite early to bloom the first year. When I've been able to plant
by the end of June, I get good first year bloom. (spring) This falls within
the six weeks frame for most of the seedlings.
Betty Wilkerson
Bridge In Time Irises
KY Zone 6
-----Original Message-----
From: irischapman@aim.com
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 10:29 pm
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
Summer Rebloomers are "direct Bloomer" biological. that is they go directly
from flower bud set to flowering. Flower bud set for TBs are usually 6 days
with minimum temperature between 16-21C aftrer plant has reached leaf count
maturity minus one. The final leaf is not seen until after flower stalk has
emerged, and second last leaf is tucked fairly tightly inside fan, but can be
seen if leaves are opened. So they don't need vernalization or photoperiod
trigger.
Fall cyclic rebloomers set flower buds at same time as Summer rebloomers, but
need a short night signal to initiate flower stalk growth, thus fall rebloom.
Whenever rebloomers will rebloom much earlier then a Summer rebloomer. they
seem to set flower bud as soon as the plant reches maturity, or so it seems.
For me Forever Blue et ilk, can start rebloom even before TBs finish. Often
only needing about a week of rest before restarting. And then proceed to
rebloom several times. Both Forever Blue and Autumn Jester have done near
continuous bloom, and Forever Violet is not far behind. For me Summer
rebloomers start with Queen Dorathy, followed shortly by Immortality. The
earliest is about mid August, while Whenever rebloomers can start at end of
June, when TBs are just starting their spring bloom. This year, with a cool
summer, QD and Imm rebloomed second week of Sept. Three months after whenever
rebloomers started.
Thus a sporatic rebloomer that rebloomes in summer, with other Summer
rebloomers, is likely to be more similar to Summer rebloomers geneticall, and
biological, then to whenever rebloomers. If rebloom is much earlier then
summer rebloomers, and not on a delayed fan, then it would be more similar
biological and geneticatly to whenever rebloomers.
Chuck Chapman
-----Original Message-----
From: Autmirislvr@aol.com
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 7:15 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
Chuck, How do you distinguish between Summer Rebloomers and Whenever
Rebloomers? When do each bloom in your area?
<<Summer Rebloomers get going, so proably is a whenever rebloomer>>
I'm afraid I've used the terms as interchangable. Things like All Revved Up &
Returning Chameleon (just to name a couple) can start blooming in July (summer
for me) and often bloom each month until fall frost. This year RC and Over
and Over are the only ones that have done this in my garden, but many others
have in the past.
Betty Wilkerson
Bridge In Time Irises
KY Zone 6
-----Original Message-----
From: irischapman@aim.com
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
Forever Violet
Blueberry Tart
Autumn Jester
Summer Encore
Wizzard Of Hope
Precious Little Pink
All except PLP are SDB from Forever Blue. PLP is an IB that reblooms often,
and usually before Summer Rebloomers get going, so proably is a whenever
rebloomer
Chuck Chapman
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Chaney <billchaney@ymail.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 5:44 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
Hi Chuck,
Could you list a few iris besides Forever Blue that you would call whenever
bloomers?
Thanks
Bill
From: "irischapman@aim.com" <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 12:29:44 PM
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
What Again is a bit of a mystery. I've had it and lost it several times. It
hasn't been a good rebloomer for me and I'm not sure if it is a summer
rebloomer or not. When it has rebloomed for me it was late enough in the
season to make it's classification uncertain.
Grape Cordial does not rebloom for me and so far I haven't gotten Double Your
Fun to make it throgh a fisrt winter.
Be Happy has bloomer relatively early for me., but still well after
Immortality.
Terry Atkin made the cross of What Again X Forever Blue, and did not get any
rebloomers. So a big diffeence on reciprocal crosses. I got another piece of
What Again and want to make reciprocal croses of WA and FB to see what si
going on here.
So while WA gave lots of rebloomers as pollen parent it didn't for Terry as
pod parent. It should have if What Again is a fall cyclic rebloomer or if it
is a whenever rebloomer, so it very well be a summer rebloomer that carries
the genes that FB needed.
My classification so far is the initial classification. I wouldn't be
surprized to find several subgroups or other variations of rebloom genetics.
So far an initial start of genetic classification.
To distinguish whenever rebloomers from summer rebloomers, you need to look at
initial rebloom. Summer rebloomers need to have flower bud initiated before
they rebloom, whenever rebloomers don't. Flower bud is initiated after plant
has reached maturity and has 6 days of min temperature in range of 16-21 C ,.
At least TBs do. May very well be different with SDB.
Whenever rebloomers, such as Forever Blue et ilk will rebloom much much
earlier then summer rebloomers. I'm speculating that what is happening is a
weakness of apical dominance resetting vernalization. Vernalization is an
epigenetic state, set by the cool days of fall/winter. Once a plant has been
vernalized, all of it's cells are set in that genetic state. As increases
usually don't carry vernalizatiuon with them, it would seem that the main
flower stalk resets vernalization in the plant and the increases (normally) .
In the wheneever rebloomers ( at least with mine) ther is extra quick growth,
so the increases may very well be too large to be reset to a non-vernalized
state by apical dominance in spriong. Thus the increases bloom when they reach
maturity. A working theory for now.
In any case the whenever rebloomers don't need the temperature to set flower
bud, so rebloom much earlier
Summer rebloomers go directly from flower bud initiation to bloom, not
needing eithr vernalization or photoperiod to trigger bloom.
To distinguish sporatic as to what genetic type, (aside from test crosses) it
would be necessary to see iff they bloom earlier then, say, Queen Dorothy.
Keep track of those with maiden summer bloom. I've done that with mine this
year. It wil;l be interesting t osee what they do in later years.
My best guess at what is happening with maiden summer bloom comes from some
research on ardiopsis. Some seeds that inherit a defective bloom gene will
be set into total plant vernalization by stratification of seeds. And not have
vernalization reset by germination. Thus they act as if they had already been
vernalized. Thus they have genes that may contribute to rebloom, but perhaps
not stong enough for rebloom. Again, morew to find out.
I still only have theories on what is making whenever rebloomers do their
thing. I'm still looking carefully and tying to sort it all out. Always more
to discover.
Chuck Chapman
-----Original Message-----
From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@ cs.com>
To: iris-photos@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 4:03 am
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
o;?
Hello Chuck
Do you call What Again a summer rebloomer?
Crossed with Forever Blue, it has given fabulous rebloomers, like your
fabulous Autumn Jester that bloomed 4 times this year and Blueberry Tart, that
bloomed 3 times. There is also Forever Violet and Summer Recall, that i don't
have here, but must be good rebloomers too, mustn't they?
And what about Be Happy ? Here , it is also a summer rebloomer, and, crossed
with Forever Blue, Aitken got Double Your Fun and Grape Cordial!
There is also Cry Baby, that reblooms every summer here.
I have used profusely Forever Blue since you've sent it to me, have a look:
here are the crosses i made with Forever Blue this year:
pod
pol
seeds
B178= sangone x autumn circus
forever blue
14
Blue Chip Stock
forever blue
5
breezy blue
forever blue
24
Desi Brouwer
forever blue
3
forever
maruchi
7
forever
C144A = Plum-Plum X All That Magic
8
forever
miss meredith
4
forever
el presidente
12
forever
B247A= sailor x stingray
8
forever blue
B074A= james x forever blue
29
forever blue
B109=experiment X forever blue
8
forever blue
date
14
forever blue
C044C= cry x A045B= (sapph jewel x what)
18
forever blue
stingray
2
forever blue
B178= sangone x autumn circus
forever blue
ride the tiger
summertime blues
forever blue
25
and the crosses from last year:
A044A= red heart x plum
forever
8
A048F= djinn X bedford lilac
forever
8
B204C= step ahead x forever blue
forever
3
B306A=stingray x baby pr
forever
11
bedford lilac
forever
25
detroit
forever
9
forever
A020B-RE=whatXsapph jew
18
forever
ozark
22
forever
ruby
10
forever blue
A020B-RE=whatXsapph jew
28
forever blue
B156A=forever x cry
16
forever blue
over & over
20
2007:
pod
pol
seed
captured spirit
forever blue
33
elegant lass
forever blue
45
eternal bliss
forever blue
11
forever blue
cheeky
14
forever blue
A021A= Smell X Plum
17
forever blue
prank
13
forever blue
claire doodle
5
forever blue
punk
11
forever blue
honky tonk blues
4
hell cat
forever blue
9
immortality
forever blue
24
love's tune
forever blue
8
mariposa skies
forever blue
21
pink fawn
forever blue
19
roman noir
forever blue
29
sailor
forever blue
14
sky king return
forever blue
16
snapie
forever blue
30
thalasso
forever blue
13
ticketty boo
forever blue
24
voila
forever blue
3
wizard's return
forever blue
22
2006 :
pod
pol
az ap
forever blue
18
breakers
forever blue
8
eramosa skies
forever blue
17
experiment
forever blue
30
forever blue
captive sun
11
forever blue
star of africa
8
forever blue
chubby cheeks
7
forever blue
cry baby
0
james bond
forever blue
28
long john
forever blue
14
mezza cartuccia
forever blue
5
roman noir
forever blue
23
step ahead
forever blue
18
westar
forever blue
8
Now, some exciting results:
here are the ones that maiden bloomed this summer (we'll see next year if they
really are rebloomers, but it is a good omen),
this is the whole list, there are many from Forever Blue, and also from What
Again:
B032B=cream X frankincense
07_12
B032C = Cream & Peaches X Franckincense
10_09
B297C=et bliss x punk
08_08
C014A= midsummer's eve x rom ev
09_09
C017B= miss nellie x buc arcade
09_02
C022A= demon x altar fire
08_30
C044B= cry x A045B= (sapph jewel x what)
08_29
C065A= A034B= (high wire x what ) X unknown
08_16
C065B= (A034B= high wire x what ) X unknown
08_14
C065D= (A034B= high wire x what ) X unknown
07_22
C065E= (A034B= high wire x what ) X unknown
08_09
C065F= A034B= (high wire x what ) X unknown
08_16
C067D= (A038E = gypsy boy x hot) X aut tan
08_27
C067E= (A038E = gypsy boy x hot) X aut tan
10_17
C078B= blueberry tart X A045B= (sapph jewel x what)
08_27
C080B= capt spirit x forever
08_17
C080C= capt spirit x forever
09_04
C090A=dark crystal x autumn jester
08_16
C095A= dixie x cry
09_04
C105B= forever x punk
07_29
C138B=pink fawn X forever
07_05
C138C=pink fawn X fforever
07_18
C138D= pink fawn xforever
08_15
C139A= plenitude x cry
08_20
C144A= plum x all that magic
08_13
C160A= serenity X (A045B= sapph jewel x what)
07_27
C167A= sparkplug X (A023B= smelll x what)
09_10
C173A= ticketty boo x forever
07_15
C173B= ticketty boo x forever
08_12
C185A= fairy x elegant
08_09
C191A = (A045D=(sapph jewel x what)) X cheeky
07_26
C199= baby prince x ozark
09_07
C208A= cry x immortality
09_09
C209 = cry X Just teasing
09_27
C240A= punk x bounce back
08_22
C250A= tarheel x ozark
09_09
C262= wizard's x stingray
09_19
C264= (A052A=tweety X flamingvic) Xmidsummer's eve
11_10
C265A= A056A-speculaas x altar fires
09_05
C272A=sunny cinnamon x midsummer's eve
08_01
C273= (A056A=(gypsy boy x rom ev) X cassis)
07_10
C295A= finsterwald x hot
08_22
C312= nth jewel x pinch
08_24
C322A = Radiant Love X Bijtje:(pelexhot)
09_15
C330A= voila x all that magic
09_05
C331= voila X (A034B= high wire x what)
08_31
C343= angel heart x banana
07_20
C348B = Zing Me X Romantic Evening
09_12
C350A = Evercool X Popstar
09_23
C358A = Low Ho Silver X Immortality
11_05
C360= many manalos x et bliss
08_31
C364A= pink pele x rom ev
08_25
C375B= smash x miss nellie
08_27
C380A= aglow again x midsummer's eve
08_06
C382E= step ahead X A045L(= sapph jewel x what)
08_07
C383A= elegant lass x forever
07_30
C383B= elegant lass x forever
08_05
C387A= smash x elegant
08_31
C399 = Dante's Inferno X A001A ( baby bengal x Tiger Honey )
09_13
C411A = Angelic Wings X What Again
09_20
C411B = Angelic Wings X What Again
10_03
C411C = Angelic Wings X What Again
10_07
C411D = Angelic Wings X What Again
10_10
C411E = Angelic Wings X What Again
10_31
C437A= gold reprise x (A023C=(smelll x what))
08_13
C458= skyking returns x cry
08_26
C482A=unknown TB X unknown
07_25
C482B=unknown TB X unknown
08_15
C482C= unknown TB x unknown
08_30
C494A=unknown X unknown
08_16
It will be more interesting to see what really reblooms next year, but think
it would be good food for thought.
LoC/c
NB: Betty, have you noticed all the seedlings from Midsummer's Eve, that is a
child from Immortality!
----- Original Message -----
From: irischapman@ aim.com
To: iris-photos@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:44 PM
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
At times it takes close observation to distinguish what type of rebloomer you
have. A plant that reblooms later in season may be a summer rebloomer
genetically, but not have had size earlier in season to trigger bloom. So you
would need to have noted that it was at size (leaf maturity) to have summer
rebloom, and have it sit there and not rebloom when opportunity presents.
Opporunity based on weather factors, but you can use plant markers such as
Immortality and Queen dorothy as markers.
Also you can have Fall cyclic rebloomers put up a summer bloom, but on a fan
that should have bloomed in spring, but was just missing all factors needed.
You can tell this by checking rhizome to see if it is a mother fan blooming
or an increase. If on a mother fan, then consider this to not be a summer
rebloomer, until you get a summer bloom on an increase.
There is absolutly no doubt in my mind that Summer Rebloomers and Fall cyclic
rebloomers are different genetically. I had made numerous crosses of Forever
Blue with summer rebloomers, nary a rebloom seedling out of hundreds of
seedlings. Many rebloomers out of FB X fall cyclic rebloomers. Far far past
any level of significance you could apply to this.
Many instances of Fall cyclic rebloomers from cross of Fall cyclic
rebloomers X oncers. George Sutton had written and article on this a couple of
years back.
Chuck Chapman
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net. com>
To: iris@hort.net; iris-photos@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 1:28 pm
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
[so folks trying to find info in the archives are more likely to find
the discussion, I've moved my comments there as well as photos]
Too soon in attempted rebloom crosses to say for sure, but so far,
rebloom seems to be acting like a full recessive trait (i.e., 1/36 fall
cycle from two half "summer" rebloom parents). Climate interaction and
multiple genetic factors makes it hard to interpret data, but easy
enough to figure out what I want to change.
I'm still not totally convinced that fall cycle and "summer" (i.e.
jul/aug in my climate) bloom are separate genes. With only maiden
bloom, it's too soon to tell how many/if any of the late fall bloom this
year is really rebloom, much less whether it's cycle or summer.
However, if your theory holds for my climate, Chuck, based on leaf
count, it looks like they will all be late cycle.
If they are separate genes, most/all of the "summer" bloomers here also
have cycle rebloom genes.
But am hoping that whatever other factors are operating in plants that
<can> bloom in July and Aug in California have a chance of combining
with plants carrying Jul/Aug genes here to produce plants that will
thrive in my growing conditions and at least bloom by Sept. I'm hoping
to combine traits of my plants that thrive in summer high humidity and
erratic rainfall with those of cultivars that bloom in CA summer heat.
May not be possible, but I figure it's worth a try.
So far, the only west coast summer bloomers that have rebloomed here are
FEED BACK and GOLDEN IMMORTAL. At least those are the only two I can
think of. MARTY RICHARDS is alive, but doesn't rebloom. MARIPOSA
AUTUMN is a strong growing, reliable, fairly early cycle rebloomer here.
Chuck replied:
<Fall Cyclic maturity seems to act like a dominant factor, so no need
to cross it with an other Fall cyclic rebloomer. Just a plant with fast
growth and low "plant Maturity" leaf count.>
I said:
<To get away from all this late cycle rebloom here, for next year's
rebloom crosses, I hope to mix the late cycle genes from a few things
exclusively with west coast "summer" bloomers to see if that will get
the right mixture of rebloom genes to at least get earlier fall bloom.>
Summer Rebloomers are "direct Bloomer" biological. that is they go directly
from flower bud set to flowering. Flower bud set for TBs are usually 6 days
with minimum temperature between 16-21C aftrer plant has reached leaf count
maturity minus one. The final leaf is not seen until after flower stalk has
emerged, and second last leaf is tucked fairly tightly inside fan, but can be
seen if leaves are opened. So they don't need vernalization or photoperiod
trigger.
Fall cyclic rebloomers set flower buds at same time as Summer rebloomers, but
need a short night signal to initiate flower stalk growth, thus fall rebloom.
Whenever rebloomers will rebloom much earlier then a Summer rebloomer. they
seem to set flower bud as soon as the plant reches maturity, or so it seems.
For me Forever Blue et ilk, can start rebloom even before TBs finish. Often
only needing about a week of rest before restarting. And then proceed to
rebloom several times. Both Forever Blue and Autumn Jester have done near
continuous bloom, and Forever Violet is not far behind. For me Summer
rebloomers start with Queen Dorathy, followed shortly by Immortality. The
earliest is about mid August, while Whenever rebloomers can start at end of
June, when TBs are just starting their spring bloom. This year, with a cool
summer, QD and Imm rebloomed second week of Sept. Three months after whenever
rebloomers started.
Thus a sporatic rebloomer that rebloomes in summer, with other Summer
rebloomers, is likely to be more similar to Summer rebloomers geneticall, and
biological, then to whenever rebloomers. If rebloom is much earlier then
summer rebloomers, and not on a delayed fan, then it would be more similar
biological and geneticatly to whenever rebloomers.
Chuck Chapman
-----Original Message-----
From: Autmirislvr@aol.com
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 7:15 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
Chuck, How do you distinguish between Summer Rebloomers and Whenever
Rebloomers? When do each bloom in your area?
<<Summer Rebloomers get going, so proably is a whenever rebloomer>>
I'm afraid I've used the terms as interchangable. Things like All Revved Up &
Returning Chameleon (just to name a couple) can start blooming in July (summer
for me) and often bloom each month until fall frost. This year RC and Over
and Over are the only ones that have done this in my garden, but many others
have in the past.
Betty Wilkerson
Bridge In Time Irises
KY Zone 6
-----Original Message-----
From: irischapman@aim.com
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
Forever Violet
Blueberry Tart
Autumn Jester
Summer Encore
Wizzard Of Hope
Precious Little Pink
All except PLP are SDB from Forever Blue. PLP is an IB that reblooms often,
and usually before Summer Rebloomers get going, so proably is a whenever
rebloomer
Chuck Chapman
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Chaney <billchaney@ymail.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 5:44 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
Hi Chuck,
Could you list a few iris besides Forever Blue that you would call whenever
bloomers?
Thanks
Bill
From: "irischapman@aim.com" <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 8, 2009 12:29:44 PM
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
What Again is a bit of a mystery. I've had it and lost it several times. It
hasn't been a good rebloomer for me and I'm not sure if it is a summer
rebloomer or not. When it has rebloomed for me it was late enough in the
season to make it's classification uncertain.
Grape Cordial does not rebloom for me and so far I haven't gotten Double Your
Fun to make it throgh a fisrt winter.
Be Happy has bloomer relatively early for me., but still well after
Immortality.
Terry Atkin made the cross of What Again X Forever Blue, and did not get any
rebloomers. So a big diffeence on reciprocal crosses. I got another piece of
What Again and want to make reciprocal croses of WA and FB to see what si
going on here.
So while WA gave lots of rebloomers as pollen parent it didn't for Terry as
pod parent. It should have if What Again is a fall cyclic rebloomer or if it
is a whenever rebloomer, so it very well be a summer rebloomer that carries
the genes that FB needed.
My classification so far is the initial classification. I wouldn't be
surprized to find several subgroups or other variations of rebloom genetics.
So far an initial start of genetic classification.
To distinguish whenever rebloomers from summer rebloomers, you need to look at
initial rebloom. Summer rebloomers need to have flower bud initiated before
they rebloom, whenever rebloomers don't. Flower bud is initiated after plant
has reached maturity and has 6 days of min temperature in range of 16-21 C ,.
At least TBs do. May very well be different with SDB.
Whenever rebloomers, such as Forever Blue et ilk will rebloom much much
earlier then summer rebloomers. I'm speculating that what is happening is a
weakness of apical dominance resetting vernalization. Vernalization is an
epigenetic state, set by the cool days of fall/winter. Once a plant has been
vernalized, all of it's cells are set in that genetic state. As increases
usually don't carry vernalizatiuon with them, it would seem that the main
flower stalk resets vernalization in the plant and the increases (normally) .
In the wheneever rebloomers ( at least with mine) ther is extra quick growth,
so the increases may very well be too large to be reset to a non-vernalized
state by apical dominance in spriong. Thus the increases bloom when they reach
maturity. A working theory for now.
In any case the whenever rebloomers don't need the temperature to set flower
bud, so rebloom much earlier
Summer rebloomers go directly from flower bud initiation to bloom, not
needing eithr vernalization or photoperiod to trigger bloom.
To distinguish sporatic as to what genetic type, (aside from test crosses) it
would be necessary to see iff they bloom earlier then, say, Queen Dorothy.
Keep track of those with maiden summer bloom. I've done that with mine this
year. It wil;l be interesting t osee what they do in later years.
My best guess at what is happening with maiden summer bloom comes from some
research on ardiopsis. Some seeds that inherit a defective bloom gene will
be set into total plant vernalization by stratification of seeds. And not have
vernalization reset by germination. Thus they act as if they had already been
vernalized. Thus they have genes that may contribute to rebloom, but perhaps
not stong enough for rebloom. Again, morew to find out.
I still only have theories on what is making whenever rebloomers do their
thing. I'm still looking carefully and tying to sort it all out. Always more
to discover.
Chuck Chapman
-----Original Message-----
From: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@ cs.com>
To: iris-photos@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 4:03 am
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
o;?
Hello Chuck
Do you call What Again a summer rebloomer?
Crossed with Forever Blue, it has given fabulous rebloomers, like your
fabulous Autumn Jester that bloomed 4 times this year and Blueberry Tart, that
bloomed 3 times. There is also Forever Violet and Summer Recall, that i don't
have here, but must be good rebloomers too, mustn't they?
And what about Be Happy ? Here , it is also a summer rebloomer, and, crossed
with Forever Blue, Aitken got Double Your Fun and Grape Cordial!
There is also Cry Baby, that reblooms every summer here.
I have used profusely Forever Blue since you've sent it to me, have a look:
here are the crosses i made with Forever Blue this year:
pod
pol
seeds
B178= sangone x autumn circus
forever blue
14
Blue Chip Stock
forever blue
5
breezy blue
forever blue
24
Desi Brouwer
forever blue
3
forever
maruchi
7
forever
C144A = Plum-Plum X All That Magic
8
forever
miss meredith
4
forever
el presidente
12
forever
B247A= sailor x stingray
8
forever blue
B074A= james x forever blue
29
forever blue
B109=experiment X forever blue
8
forever blue
date
14
forever blue
C044C= cry x A045B= (sapph jewel x what)
18
forever blue
stingray
2
forever blue
B178= sangone x autumn circus
forever blue
ride the tiger
summertime blues
forever blue
25
and the crosses from last year:
A044A= red heart x plum
forever
8
A048F= djinn X bedford lilac
forever
8
B204C= step ahead x forever blue
forever
3
B306A=stingray x baby pr
forever
11
bedford lilac
forever
25
detroit
forever
9
forever
A020B-RE=whatXsapph jew
18
forever
ozark
22
forever
ruby
10
forever blue
A020B-RE=whatXsapph jew
28
forever blue
B156A=forever x cry
16
forever blue
over & over
20
2007:
pod
pol
seed
captured spirit
forever blue
33
elegant lass
forever blue
45
eternal bliss
forever blue
11
forever blue
cheeky
14
forever blue
A021A= Smell X Plum
17
forever blue
prank
13
forever blue
claire doodle
5
forever blue
punk
11
forever blue
honky tonk blues
4
hell cat
forever blue
9
immortality
forever blue
24
love's tune
forever blue
8
mariposa skies
forever blue
21
pink fawn
forever blue
19
roman noir
forever blue
29
sailor
forever blue
14
sky king return
forever blue
16
snapie
forever blue
30
thalasso
forever blue
13
ticketty boo
forever blue
24
voila
forever blue
3
wizard's return
forever blue
22
2006 :
pod
pol
az ap
forever blue
18
breakers
forever blue
8
eramosa skies
forever blue
17
experiment
forever blue
30
forever blue
captive sun
11
forever blue
star of africa
8
forever blue
chubby cheeks
7
forever blue
cry baby
0
james bond
forever blue
28
long john
forever blue
14
mezza cartuccia
forever blue
5
roman noir
forever blue
23
step ahead
forever blue
18
westar
forever blue
8
Now, some exciting results:
here are the ones that maiden bloomed this summer (we'll see next year if they
really are rebloomers, but it is a good omen),
this is the whole list, there are many from Forever Blue, and also from What
Again:
B032B=cream X frankincense
07_12
B032C = Cream & Peaches X Franckincense
10_09
B297C=et bliss x punk
08_08
C014A= midsummer's eve x rom ev
09_09
C017B= miss nellie x buc arcade
09_02
C022A= demon x altar fire
08_30
C044B= cry x A045B= (sapph jewel x what)
08_29
C065A= A034B= (high wire x what ) X unknown
08_16
C065B= (A034B= high wire x what ) X unknown
08_14
C065D= (A034B= high wire x what ) X unknown
07_22
C065E= (A034B= high wire x what ) X unknown
08_09
C065F= A034B= (high wire x what ) X unknown
08_16
C067D= (A038E = gypsy boy x hot) X aut tan
08_27
C067E= (A038E = gypsy boy x hot) X aut tan
10_17
C078B= blueberry tart X A045B= (sapph jewel x what)
08_27
C080B= capt spirit x forever
08_17
C080C= capt spirit x forever
09_04
C090A=dark crystal x autumn jester
08_16
C095A= dixie x cry
09_04
C105B= forever x punk
07_29
C138B=pink fawn X forever
07_05
C138C=pink fawn X fforever
07_18
C138D= pink fawn xforever
08_15
C139A= plenitude x cry
08_20
C144A= plum x all that magic
08_13
C160A= serenity X (A045B= sapph jewel x what)
07_27
C167A= sparkplug X (A023B= smelll x what)
09_10
C173A= ticketty boo x forever
07_15
C173B= ticketty boo x forever
08_12
C185A= fairy x elegant
08_09
C191A = (A045D=(sapph jewel x what)) X cheeky
07_26
C199= baby prince x ozark
09_07
C208A= cry x immortality
09_09
C209 = cry X Just teasing
09_27
C240A= punk x bounce back
08_22
C250A= tarheel x ozark
09_09
C262= wizard's x stingray
09_19
C264= (A052A=tweety X flamingvic) Xmidsummer's eve
11_10
C265A= A056A-speculaas x altar fires
09_05
C272A=sunny cinnamon x midsummer's eve
08_01
C273= (A056A=(gypsy boy x rom ev) X cassis)
07_10
C295A= finsterwald x hot
08_22
C312= nth jewel x pinch
08_24
C322A = Radiant Love X Bijtje:(pelexhot)
09_15
C330A= voila x all that magic
09_05
C331= voila X (A034B= high wire x what)
08_31
C343= angel heart x banana
07_20
C348B = Zing Me X Romantic Evening
09_12
C350A = Evercool X Popstar
09_23
C358A = Low Ho Silver X Immortality
11_05
C360= many manalos x et bliss
08_31
C364A= pink pele x rom ev
08_25
C375B= smash x miss nellie
08_27
C380A= aglow again x midsummer's eve
08_06
C382E= step ahead X A045L(= sapph jewel x what)
08_07
C383A= elegant lass x forever
07_30
C383B= elegant lass x forever
08_05
C387A= smash x elegant
08_31
C399 = Dante's Inferno X A001A ( baby bengal x Tiger Honey )
09_13
C411A = Angelic Wings X What Again
09_20
C411B = Angelic Wings X What Again
10_03
C411C = Angelic Wings X What Again
10_07
C411D = Angelic Wings X What Again
10_10
C411E = Angelic Wings X What Again
10_31
C437A= gold reprise x (A023C=(smelll x what))
08_13
C458= skyking returns x cry
08_26
C482A=unknown TB X unknown
07_25
C482B=unknown TB X unknown
08_15
C482C= unknown TB x unknown
08_30
C494A=unknown X unknown
08_16
It will be more interesting to see what really reblooms next year, but think
it would be good food for thought.
LoC/c
NB: Betty, have you noticed all the seedlings from Midsummer's Eve, that is a
child from Immortality!
----- Original Message -----
From: irischapman@ aim.com
To: iris-photos@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:44 PM
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
At times it takes close observation to distinguish what type of rebloomer you
have. A plant that reblooms later in season may be a summer rebloomer
genetically, but not have had size earlier in season to trigger bloom. So you
would need to have noted that it was at size (leaf maturity) to have summer
rebloom, and have it sit there and not rebloom when opportunity presents.
Opporunity based on weather factors, but you can use plant markers such as
Immortality and Queen dorothy as markers.
Also you can have Fall cyclic rebloomers put up a summer bloom, but on a fan
that should have bloomed in spring, but was just missing all factors needed.
You can tell this by checking rhizome to see if it is a mother fan blooming
or an increase. If on a mother fan, then consider this to not be a summer
rebloomer, until you get a summer bloom on an increase.
There is absolutly no doubt in my mind that Summer Rebloomers and Fall cyclic
rebloomers are different genetically. I had made numerous crosses of Forever
Blue with summer rebloomers, nary a rebloom seedling out of hundreds of
seedlings. Many rebloomers out of FB X fall cyclic rebloomers. Far far past
any level of significance you could apply to this.
Many instances of Fall cyclic rebloomers from cross of Fall cyclic
rebloomers X oncers. George Sutton had written and article on this a couple of
years back.
Chuck Chapman
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net. com>
To: iris@hort.net; iris-photos@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 1:28 pm
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: fall cyclic vs other (was seedling help on
photos group)
[so folks trying to find info in the archives are more likely to find
the discussion, I've moved my comments there as well as photos]
Too soon in attempted rebloom crosses to say for sure, but so far,
rebloom seems to be acting like a full recessive trait (i.e., 1/36 fall
cycle from two half "summer" rebloom parents). Climate interaction and
multiple genetic factors makes it hard to interpret data, but easy
enough to figure out what I want to change.
I'm still not totally convinced that fall cycle and "summer" (i.e.
jul/aug in my climate) bloom are separate genes. With only maiden
bloom, it's too soon to tell how many/if any of the late fall bloom this
year is really rebloom, much less whether it's cycle or summer.
However, if your theory holds for my climate, Chuck, based on leaf
count, it looks like they will all be late cycle.
If they are separate genes, most/all of the "summer" bloomers here also
have cycle rebloom genes.
But am hoping that whatever other factors are operating in plants that
<can> bloom in July and Aug in California have a chance of combining
with plants carrying Jul/Aug genes here to produce plants that will
thrive in my growing conditions and at least bloom by Sept. I'm hoping
to combine traits of my plants that thrive in summer high humidity and
erratic rainfall with those of cultivars that bloom in CA summer heat.
May not be possible, but I figure it's worth a try.
So far, the only west coast summer bloomers that have rebloomed here are
FEED BACK and GOLDEN IMMORTAL. At least those are the only two I can
think of. MARTY RICHARDS is alive, but doesn't rebloom. MARIPOSA
AUTUMN is a strong growing, reliable, fairly early cycle rebloomer here.
Chuck replied:
<Fall Cyclic maturity seems to act like a dominant factor, so no need
to cross it with an other Fall cyclic rebloomer. Just a plant with fast
growth and low "plant Maturity" leaf count.>
I said:
<To get away from all this late cycle rebloom here, for next year's
rebloom crosses, I hope to mix the late cycle genes from a few things
exclusively with west coast "summer" bloomers to see if that will get
the right mixture of rebloom genes to at least get earlier fall bloom.>
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