iris DIGEST        Thursday, November 27 2014        Volume 01 : Number 373



In this issue:

        Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding
        oops - confusing sentence Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding
        Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding
        Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding
        [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding
        Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding

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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 07:01:47 -0500
From: Linda Mann <1*@rewrite.hort.net>
Subject: Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding

Thanks Chuck.  So you don't remember which CA rebloomers folks were
planning to use.

I've read/heard rumor of similar things by people like Byers, Zurbrigg,
Hager, Lauer, Wilkerson, and they all did/are introducing rebloomers.
But I can see that the ones with a lot of "CA" genes would lack the cold
hardiness to be reliable in zones lower than about 7.

<When reading through old articles from  all over the place, for more
then the past 30 years, people have been talking about  breeding the
preferential rebloomers  (rebloom in Californai)  to hardy norther
rebloomers and report that they have  or were going to try it.>

? it is <not> a fall cyclic rebloomer here.  Unless you consider rebloom
in August fall cycle. [I wrote this msg before thinking my way through
the whole thing, & now I'm thinking Tea Leaves might be both a reliable
preferential rebloomer here <and> a cylce rebloomer.  Imm X Viol Classic
has produced an unreliable summer blooming seedling here, so .. not sure
what that makes Viol Classic.]

On 11/26/2014 6:41 PM, Chuck Chapman wrote:
> Tea Leaves  is a fall cyclic rebloomer , getting fall cyclic genes from
>  Violet Classic, and reblooms    in  cold zones, so is a  cold climate
> rebloomer , like Violet Classic.

Thank you for answering my question.
> Byers made lots of rebloomers,  but nothing  that does well here in Zone 4.

I suspected that they might not be cold tolerant enough with all those
CA selected genes in there.  Most are not disease and late freeze
tolerant enough to do as well as most of my own seedlings here, but the
combinations are looking good.  Tea Leaves has been the strongest Byers
iris here that I've tried.

I agree the form from Sky Hooks is not a step forward, but it broadens
the genetic pool that works here and from my own seedlings, it (via Tea
Leaves) does play well with others (i.e., combined with IMM X Treasured
seedling).

>And  the form from Sky Hooks is not a step forward.

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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 07:39:58 -0500
From: Linda Mann <1*@rewrite.hort.net>
Subject: oops - confusing sentence Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding

Should say:
Assuming the answer is yes, let's see if I got this - in our zone "9"
breeding programs, we are combining <cultivars/seedlings that have>
preferential rebloom genes, and those same cultivars/seedlings may or
may not also have recessive rebloom genes and/or dominant fall cycle genes.

On 11/27/2014 7:05 AM, Linda Mann wrote:
> Assuming the answer is yes, let's see if I got this - in our zone "9"
> breeding programs, we are combining preferential rebloom genes (some of
> which also may or may not have recessive rebloom genes and/or dominant
> fall cycle genes)

Linda Mann zone 7 east TN

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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:07:27 -0500
From: Chuck Chapman <d*@rewrite.hort.net>
Subject: Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding

In terms of Preferential vernalization rebloomers, is that the  5
months of  growing conditions after  bud  set is  the INITIAL  trigger
to remove  vernalization need and to reset epigenetic state. So plant
is now in the vernalized epigentic state. So after that plant will
rebloom  frequently  during next season. And the  plants that have not
been set into  vernalized  epigenetic astate  will not rebloom until
late in season, but will be set  for next season, and so on.  This
state  will carry over to a new climate for the first year of  growth,
and then will be set  by it's new environment. So you could get
"rebloom' first summer in new environment.  After that it will settle
into  a response to it's new environmental signals. It needs the  5
months (give or take)  to get the  vernalized epigentic state,
bypassing regular vernalization. After that it is good to go.

  The early bloom  you see in spring on  rebloomer  is usually  from the
Fall cyclic rebloomers that  were triggered the  previous fall and 
then went into eco-dormancy  ( that is too cold and daylight too short
for  good plant growth). So next year have a head start. If you observe
  these clumps with early bloom  you will see some flower stalks at 
normal  bloom time  and in some years no early spring bloom.

As there different types of rebloom genes are all involved in different
points in  flowering  gene complex, they are independent and  could all
be present in any one plant.

The Fall cyclic rebloom genes are  a dominant condition. In terms of 
inheritance.  In combination with Preverential vernalization genes, it
will dominate.  So if present, plant will rebloom in colder climates.

Fall cyclic with  Instantaneous ( summer rebloom ) genes, the 
instananeous will control. Immortality is a good example of this. As
far as I can tell it has  summer as well as fall cyclic genes.

In a  combination of  Instantaneous and  PV (preferential
Vernalization) genes  the  Instantaneous will dominate.

To tell which  gene is controlling  rebloom you need to have good
environmental  data and plant observation. Thus I keep records of 
minimum and maximum temperatures and correlate this as to went plant s
rebloom.    When in doubt, I consult my temperature records for the few
weeks before bloom.

Chuck Chapman


- -----Original Message-----
From: Linda Mann <1*@rewrite.hort.net>
To: iris <i*@hort.net>
Sent: Thu, Nov 27, 2014 8:29 am
Subject: Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding

That's too restrictive - I'm in zone 7, Betty is zone 6, not sure which
Mary Lou is - zone 6 I think.

I refuse to believe that my reblooming seedlings are an illusion! ;-)

On 11/26/2014 8:32 PM, Chuck Chapman wrote:
> The preferential ( warm climate rebloomers) have nothing to offer me,
or
> most  breeders of rebloomers who do not live in a zone 9 area. It is
an
> illusion for anyone not in a zone 9 (perhaps not for some zone 8).

One more question - if an individual cultivar/seedling has preferential
rebloom genes, is it possible for it to also have a set of recessive
rebloom genes plus a set of cycle rebloom genes?

Assuming the answer is yes, let's see if I got this - in our zone "9"
breeding programs, we are combining preferential rebloom genes (some of
which also may or may not have recessive rebloom genes and/or dominant
fall cycle genes) with cold climate tolerance (all of which have either
recessive "summer" or dominant fall cycle rebloom genes).

With added cold tolerance (resistance to light freeze damage), these
seedlings have a longer potential season to do the preferential rebloom
thing, if the season is just right in zones 6-8.

The 'real' zone 9 (CA/OZ) rebloomers that can bloom in July would have
to have bloomed in ...5 months earlier would be Feb, so more likely
these bloomed in late fall - Nov/Dec.  & the ones that bloom in Aug
would have 'spring' bloomed in March.

Do TBs start blooming in Mar in zone 9?

Is this where the idea came from that to get rebloomers, it's best to
cross the really early blooming ones?  Never have been able to
understand the logic on that one - those are the ones most likely to be
frozen out, here anyway.

So that 5 months thing would make cycle rebloomers pretty
indistinguishable from preferential rebloomers here - first bloom in
April/May, 5 months later is Sept/Oct.  And in colder zones, they are,
not surprisingly, reblooming in Nov.  Some of these are very reliable
rebloomers in parts of zones 6 & 7 where late freezes aren't an issue.

Thanks Chuck, I think I understand some more about what might be going
on with some of these occasional rebloomers that I'm getting. plus it
makes some sense out of the ones that try to rebloom in late OCt/Nov
here.  I am definitely going to have to start irrigating to sort out
the
seedlings that may be cycle/preferential vs the recessives that I want.

Tho it may not be of any use to you or others in zones north of 6, the
ability to grow well enough to be a reliable preferential rebloomer
with
good form and fertility is a good thing.  Not a first generation
rebloomer of the genetic type I want, but will have some of those genes
in the first generation and a decent probability of recapturing them in
the next generation.

Have a good Thanksgiving, Chuck!

And Happy Thanksgiving to everybody else as well.

;-)

Linda Mann

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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 18:41:31 -0500
From: Chuck Chapman <d*@rewrite.hort.net>
Subject: Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding

When reading through old articles from  all over the place, for more
then the past 30 years, people have been talking about  breeding the
preferential rebloomers  (rebloom in Californai)  to hardy norther
rebloomers and report that they have  or were going to try it. Then no 
reports  of  the results of these crosses. It is all there but I'm not
going to look it up for  specific details or who and where.  People
don't give details of their failures.

Tea Leaves  is a fall cyclic rebloomer , getting fall cyclic genes from
  Violet Classic, and reblooms    in  cold zones, so is a  cold climate
rebloomer , like Violet Classic.

Byers made lots of rebloomers,  but nothing  that does well here in
Zone 4. And  the form from Sky Hooks is not a step forward.

Still best formed rebloomer here is Clarence ( Zurbigg 1991) One of the
reasons why, is people going in wrong direction, without an
understanding of how  the rebloom genes work

There is nothing in the  Preferential rebloomers,  rebloom genes that
has any value  to northern rebloom. It depends on a 5 month growing
season post bud set to do it's thing.  So only works in climates that
can provide that. And many warn climate  iris just don't have genes
that enable good performance in more challenging climates.

Chuck Chapman

- -----Original Message-----
From: Linda Mann <1*@rewrite.hort.net>
To: iris <i*@hort.net>
Sent: Wed, Nov 26, 2014 5:15 pm
Subject: Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding

Could you name at least one example?  You keep saying 'many' and 'it'
and I'm really curious as to who they were and what they tried.  I have
a feeling we aren't really disagreeing with each other, but would like
to be sure I know what you are referring to.

On 11/26/2014 2:15 PM, Chuck Chapman wrote:
> and many people have  tried it.

Monty Byers introduced a lot, as did Hager.  Hagers have been weaker
growers for me in general, but Feed Back keeps trucking along, as do
its
babies.  And yes, judging from Betty's introductions and what I've seen
of Mary Lou's seedling photos and what I've seen in my own garden.

Like Betty, I'm confused about which 'preferential' rebloomers you are
talking about - there are some in the checklist that have only been
reported from zone 8/9 CA <or> Oz, but many more that were bred in zone
8/9 dry summer areas that have been reported to sporadically bloom here
and there in other zones, including wet summer or cold winter areas.

I don't think Byers used any parents that <only> rebloomed in CA or Oz,
but pretty sure he used those that rebloomed reliably in dry summer
zone
8/9 to cross with more reliable eastern cold/wet hardy rebloomers.
[well, after chasing thru the checklist, it looks like Byers <did> use
things that have been reported to only bloom in CA]

> So where are the results?

Ok, now that I agree with - as long as it's just the rebloom genetics.
But I don't agree (yet) that it hasn't "advanced" the interaction of
rebloom genes with their temperature trigger requirements.  But that
would not be a cold climate advance, only a southern advance.

> And any  evidence that it has advanced  the  Rebloom genetics?

I'll root through the Byers registrations, but the obvious one is Tea
Leaves.
= Sky Hooks X Violet Classic.  The registration says it starts blooming
CA in October, but it has rebloomed in Aug here.  2008 checklist
reports
it reblooming in zones 5-10, across the US.

Violet Classic is a good ol' cold climate reliable rebloomer, has given
at least one August rebloom seedling here from IMM X Violet Classic.
Only three seedlings lived, only one lived long enough to evaluate
rebloom, so no ratios, but presumably both recessive 'summer'
rebloomers. ?

Sky Hooks has been reported to rebloom in zone 9 only, CA, BC and
Germany (odd distribution, and surely the zone for BC and Germany is
just omitted (not US)).  Sky Hooks is in the ancestry of 44 registered
rebloomers, 32 by Byers.  It was introduced by Melrose Gardens in CA.
It's from Wedding Vow X Moon Mistress, both also bred in CA.  Moon
Mistress is reported to rebloom in CA, no reports for Wedding Vow.
Byers registered 7 rebloomers from Moon Mistress.

Tasco's Mariposa Skies is (Wedding Vow x Violet Miracle (cold climate
everywhere)) X Glistening Icicle (CA, MO reb).

etc

Byers used a seedling from (Cease-Fire X Skyhooks) quite a bit, not in
the rebloom checklist of course - anybody have an old Byers catalog
that
talks about the seedling?

Cease-Fire is reported to rebloom in AZ, CA, MO, TX & Netherlands,
zones
7-10

Tea Leaves has given me a number of early rebloom seedlings that are
reliable and very strong growers here - branching is awful, but it has
given me something to mix with the IMM seedlings to recapture 'summer'
rebloom phenotype.  I used it early on, have just gotten back to really
working with it.

I'm not guessing that the rebloom genes of CA rebloomers are a unique
'type' they seem to be a mix of recessive summer and other types of
rebloom (just like Zurbrigg rebloomers), most without 4 doses of the
recessive type, and with a different high temperature trigger tolerance.

I really don't know - which is why I brought it up, again.

You keep asking what benefit is there to using these things.  They have
pollen.  They are fertile.  They contribute wider form and better
substance.  Something that is in short supply here.

I'm really sorry I asked - I wasn't trying to start an argument, just
want to know who those 'many' breeders were and what they did and if
it's documented somewhere so I could see how it fits or doesn't fit
with
my experiences.

Linda Mann

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 19:11:30 -0500
From: Linda Mann <1*@rewrite.hort.net>
Subject: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding

Chuck, I'm curious - you've mentioned several times here and on Face
Book that several people have tried crossing 'California' (west coast,
Oz) rebloomers with cold hardy rebloomers and with no success in getting
rebloom.  I think that's what you've been saying, that the rebloom
genetics are different.

But isn't that what most/all of Byers introduced rebloomers were?  And
some of us (Betty, me, Mary Lou) seem to be getting occasional 'summer'
(early fall - August) rebloom from 'sporadic'/west coast rebloomers.

Mary Lou has posted one on Face Book that's bloomed  April, May, July,
August and October. 10-511ARE: ((Tomorrow's Child x Feed Back) early RE
X Decadence).  In Illinois (or maybe she's in Indiana - I get those two
"I" states mixed up...)

So I'm curious who those breeders were, what they tried to use and what
climate they were in?

Have you tried to grow any of Byers introductions?  Seems like I
remember your posting  some of them.  Are any of them 'early'/summer
bloomers in your climate?  Have you made any crosses with them?

The more I look at pedigrees of some of these things, the more baffled I
am.  Lurking recessives?  Doubled up gametes? Warmer temperature
triggers that dont' get triggered wherever those folks you were talking
about were growing their seedlings?

Curious if you have any new thoughts about the warm weather/early
rebloom genetics.

Linda Mann
east TN USA zone 7

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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 07:44:58 -0500
From: Linda Mann <1*@rewrite.hort.net>
Subject: Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding

Chuck, in spite of not knowing for sure which rebloom genes are
present/absent in a given seedling, and definitely not understanding
fully when they are expressed by the stupid plant actually putting up a
stalk in my growing conditions, I find your theoretical model of the
different sets of rebloom genes helpful in making sense of what I'm
seeing in my seedlings.

I may not actually be making sense of it all, and I may forget most of
it by tomorrow, but I think it helps me to wrestle through the
information/observations.  Hopefully not totally useless to others as well.

So I'm thankful on this US Thanksgiving Day ;-)

Linda Mann east TN zone 7

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End of iris DIGEST V1 #373
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