Re: oncos
- Subject: Re: [iris-talk] oncos
- From: B* R*
- Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:33:27 -0400
My, my, my....now it appears someone actually wants to talk. A rather ostentatious explaination of a fairly simple statement. I am but a lowly plant grower/collector. Haven't chaired any ASI plant sales lately but I do grow and have killed my share of what I consider some difficult and beautiful things(pulvinate western phloxes & leptodactylons, rosulate violas, and last spring nearly flowererd eritrichum aretoides). Not easy plants here in southern Michigan with no greenhouse.
I was simply looking for sources and several iris-talk folks recommended this person. Perhaps I contacted her at a bad time.
As for my sources i.e. Archibald, Holubec, Pavelka, Halda, Watson, Ratko they've always treated me right (as in never talked down to me). My lycotis(Arch. 590.803), meda(Arch. 591.060), and urmiensis(Arch. 600.600 hand pollenated from their 2000 collection) though probably not as distinguished as 'your' source, seem right since Jim & Jenny actually go to places like Iran to collect them. As for my rhizomes, what you say could very well prove true. But like my ole pappy always said: 'If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a damn duck.' Only time will tell.
I'm not looking to grow 2,000 different iris, akin to bowling or baseball card collecting, this seems rather redunant to me. The beauty, difficulty, and rarity of the middle eastern species are the attraction to me. You can rest assured I will never bother you again Ms. McAllister. However, the next time some 'newcomer not familiar with the complexities' (hope I didn't misquote again) of these plants asks your advice, please don't look down your nose at them.
Brian Radford
----- Original Message -----
From: arilbredbreeder@cs.com
To: iris-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [iris-talk] oncos
In a message dated 10/24/01 7:38:44 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
brianr@modempool.com writes:
> Thanx for the info. Someday I'll have my own pics to share with you. Her
> web site is great, wonder if she actually did it? I've spoken with this
> person on the phone and according to her, 'onco species are simply
> unobtainable'. This is absolute and utter nonsense. I've found sources
> for seventeen species and actually managed to acquire seven different
> rhizomes (iberica elegantissima, iberica iberica, gatesii, sari,
> kirkwoodii, paradoxa, and nectarifera) and seed of three species (meda,
> lycotis, and urmiensis) which hasn't been available for 30 years. Sometimes
> being 'pooh-poohed' by someone who supposedly is 'in the know' can be a
> real motivator.
>
I'm certainly glad that any misunderstanding proved to be a motivator rather
than a discouragement -- but I do NOT appreciate being misquoted.
"Simply unobtainable" is a phrase I would never use -- because there is
absolutely NOTHING "simple" about this question! It could be a logical
misperception, of course, if a newcomer to the field were not yet familiar
with its complexities.
So, to set the record straight:
1. Fully-documented, true-to-name aril species are now extremely difficult
to obtain. The last time I got my hands on one was roughly 15 years ago.
That's not to say there aren't still some well-documented clones available in
the private trade -- just that they are EXTREMELY difficult to find.
2. Today, "species" rhizomes are rarely listed by collection number.
A listing of "I. kirkwoodii", for example, means merely that the grower got
it under that name -- he or she may (or may not!) have attempted to verify
its identity. Years ago, I offered this one myself though the ASI sale --
because even though I received it without a collecton #, my clone clearly
matched the identifying characteristics recorded for the species. This does
NOT mean that I can vouch for later offerings.
When I co-chaired the ASI Plant Sale, I collected "species" rhizomes from
every available source and bloomed them before offering them in the sale --
but the vast majority turned out to be mislabeled arilbreds that didn't
remotely resemble the characteristics of the species so they were NOT passed
on. I thus concluded that among "species", misidentification is a MAJOR
problem.
To take a well-documented example -- as far back as the '70s, experts were
questioning whether ANY of the "I. sari" in the United States were still
pure because two different species had been collected under that name and
subsequently inter-crossed. I grew a number of "I. sari" clones in the '70s
and '80s, but almost all were obviously of hybrid origin and none of the
remainder clearly matched any of the original descriptions. Therefore, I
doubt that ANY "I. sari" available today is true to the original species
definition. Of course, in this particular case, I HOPE that I can be proved
wrong! If you think that you have a true "I. sari", please compare it
point-by-point with the original, detailed description and post that to the
list.
But no -- repeat, NO! -- "species" rhizome should be accepted as "true" until
after it has matured and bloomed. Even then, it should be accepted ONLY IF
both plant and flower characteristics have been checked and found to match
the original species description.
3. "Species" seeds are one step down on the totem-pole. Sometimes
open-pollinated, sometimes hand-pollinated -- they clearly rank below
"species" rhizomes in terms of reliable IDs.
Obviously, the hand-pollinated have a better chance of proving true than the
open-pollinated -- but there's still the bloom-and-verify stage to be
completed. I, too, have obtained seeds of "meda, lycotis, and urmiensis"
down through the years. None -- repeat, NONE! -- have bloomed true to the
species description.
Taking all of this into consideration, open-pollinated seeds are
automatically suspect. Yes, they COULD prove to be pure species and hope
springs eternal -- but, all things considered, chances are remote. The
assumption must be that they are hybrids AND the grower must be responsible
for analyzing any resultant plants and demonstrating that they are truly
descendants of that species.
Species preservation is a project dear to my heart, and I certainly don't
want to discourage anyone from becoming involved! Unfortunately, however,
those who pass on "species" without verifying their identities just compound
the problem instead of contributing to the solution.
Sharon McAllister
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