Re: Re: HYB: backcrosses, etc

Hmmm... how old is old?
Well, I know many of the experienced hybridizers are more aware of the ''inner workings'' of the iris than I am or possibly ever will be.
Before I get into the age issue, what brought me to considering the older (1960's and earlier, as far back as one could find) iris is the fertility issues (success rates of seedlings, etc.), germination issues , weather hardiness, just to start a list that could go on. I am also interested in the ''ol' faithful'' irises that have been around and survived even the worst extremes as potential candidates. Maybe my eyes are bigger than my brain right now, but I am interested, eventually, in developing some improved iris that will grow well in colder climates. Hopefully get some nice rebloomers in there as well. It is my thinking that , perhaps, some of the older stock, the less hybridized or inbred stock, may be better in fertility and ''weatherability''. I also have it in my head that the older the stock, the better the fertility because the iris hasn't deteriorated because it hasn't been inbred or linebred to death. (At least to a certain extent, not completely of course.)
Of course I realize that the current goals of the ''pros'' are similar in limiting or eliminating certain ''plagues'' of the iris as well as ''creating'' a nicer plant with bigger and better everything and still have something that ''everyone'' will want in their garden and hopefully be able to raise in their garden regardless of weather conditions.
I'm trying to learn of others experiments with backcrossing to see what kinds of experiences they had in F1, F2, etc... if anyone even backcrossed that many times.The success to bringing out (or improving) a new variety would, I think, be backcrossing a good parent to a potentially good F1 offspring. Or to bring out characteristics of a good parent that may or may not show up in F1 offspring but that F1 would still be carrying the parents dna and pass it to the F2. (See? I'm NOT a genius!) Then by backcrossing that F2 to the parent stock, one would further stabilize the characteristic, theoretically. What the heck do I know, I've lived in Minnesota too long and frozen way too many brain cells over the years! 
Anyway, I think I've rambled a bit too long already about my thoughts and goals.
I will step down for a while... thanks for any input, tips, corrections, whatevers...
Steve Mahlberg,  Land of 10,000 frozen iris rhizomes Zone 4b.
 Linda Mann <lmann@volfirst.net> wrote:Steve Mahlberg zone 4b Duluth, Minnesota said:
<I'm just  curious as to more about the "good" or "bad" experiences
encountered  by hybridizers concerning using "historics" or "old stock"
iris to
enhance or somehow better the new. I don't want to jump into the iris
hybridizing game totally blind. :) >

Ah, Steve, you are a wiser person than I...<g>  something about fools
rushing in....

At least I do have some experience crossing old irises, and should have
a whole lot more in the next few years.  And I know of some specific
examples from other hybridizers, but the brain is fuzzy so I better go
hunt for info before blathering away too much about other hybridizers.

In my crosses with I. pallida, F1 seedlings were pretty much
intermediate between pallida and the more modern pollen parents.  I
didn't keep track of how many seedlings had which characteristics, but
as I recall, distribution was pretty much a little of this & a little of
that, with the tendency for most traits to be somewhere in between both
parents.

I have only one F2 cross that I know of - probably few seeds and fewer
germinated.  It split the difference also, moving it 3/4 of the way
towards "modern".  I don't think I have a photo, but Jim Ennenga
(retired RVP of some region or other) saw it in bloom and said "wow" -
super clean foliage of pallida, nice branching and bud placement, nice
flower size, form & substance approaching the 60s.  I have seeds from a
cross with VIZIER and something else I can't remember right now.

With pallida, there is the added "problem" of crossing diploid with
tetraploid, plus my first cross was with MULBERRY ROSE which has unknown
parentage, so who knows what was actually in that cross.

I'm not sure how far back you are interested in going to make crosses -
lots of newly registered cultivars have one parent from the early 90s,
80s & 70s; fewer from the 60s.  Very few before that.  Quite a few have
seedlings in pedigrees that are from species (i.e., species grandparents
or great grandparents)..

(..blank brain cell..) has been working with WABASH and SHAH JEHAN (30s?
or 40s?) and has at least one in the 2000 or 2001 R&I - I think he
posted some photos the last time we talked about this?  Try searching
iris-photos for WABASH.

Ben Hager included I. balkana in some of his recent lines, one of which
I watched rot here a few weeks ago... :-<

I'm sure other hybridizers of modern TBs are working with species and
various other in between ages of historics - I too would love to hear
their perspectives.

So, Steve, how old is old?

--
Linda Mann east Tennessee USA zone 7/8

Tennessee Whooping Crane Walkathon:
<http://www.whoopingcranesovertn.org>
American Iris Society web site <http://www.irises.org>
iris-talk/Mallorn archives: <http://www.hort.net/lists/iris-talk/>
iris-photos/Mallorn archives: <http://www.hort.net/lists/iris-photos/>




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