RE: JI Symposium & judges training

Congrats to all organizers of the JI symposium.  It was a job well =
done.
And as others have said, it seemed too short.

Ian, we need to talk about your views on judges training.  Judging iris
is not unlike any other horticultural or arts judging.  Judges are
individuals and have biases.  As you could not stay for the whole
session, perhaps you did not come away with the message the rest of us
did - garden judging is our raison-d'=EAtre.

Maureen Mark
Ottawa, Canada - where unlike Ian who must be a half zone warmer, we =
got
our first frost a few weeks ago.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Ian E. Efford [SMTP:avocet.intl@sympatico.ca]
		Sent:	Thursday, October 16, 1997 5:15 PM
		To:	Mark, Maureen; Multiple recipients of list
		Subject:	JI Symposium - Stop burning the red-hea



		Kathy is to be congratulated on the very well organized
JI symposium
		which was both enjoyable and educational but, may be a
little short.=20
		Another day of discussion would have been better.

		I am facinated, as I am sure Dennis Hager will be, by
her remarks that
		we are "about 100 years younger than I expected".  I
just wonder what
		she had as an image!  When a full professor (at 32), I
was turned down
		for entry into the library stacks at the university on
the grounds that
		I was an undergraduate and not allowed into that
section!  Since that
		time, my efforts have focused on gaining that little bit
of grey hair
		above the ears which seems to impress women so much.  It
would have
		given me that air of maturity which has been so lacking
in my
		behaviour.  Unfortunately, it has failed to develop (may
be I am a
		double recessive) but I still hope.  Attending judges
training may well
		bring it on as I find the whole experience so
frustrating.

		I certainly have no desire to be a judge but I do wish
to understand
		just how to "see" irises accurately.  For this reason, I
have attended
		one training session in North Carolina and the first
part of John
		Coble's one in Burlington.  After N.C., I concluded that
the system
		lacked intellectual structure and that there were few
standards by which
		to judge a flower.  There is a a wide latitude given to
personal opinion
		and this was confirmed by John Coble when he said that
any three judges
		might select winners at a show but that another three
judges at the same
		show might select entirely different winners.  This is
like
		international ice dancing where the dancers know their
final rank before
		they go on the ice (bribery plays a large part) and the
only issue is
		whether they fall during their performances.

		At Burlington, we saw JI photos of what I can only call
"unmade bed
		irises".  No formal structure, no symmetry, just a mass
of petals and
		deformed standards, etc.  What are the rules to judge
such a mess?

		John raised a more disturbing issue.  He said that some
JI plants can
		produce two distinct forms of flower from the same
plant.  One is
		exactly as defined in the registration and the other is
a colour sport
		that can be very different.  He said that a judge should
know this and
		reject the sport as it is unacceptable.  I had to leave
for the airport
		at this point - which may have been a good thing!  If
that flower is
		perfect in every way except that it does not have the
colour or colour
		pattern described in the registration, why would it be
rejected?  The
		only analogy that I could think of is the old tradition
of burning
		red-headed women because they were different!  I am all
for keeping the
		red-heads as they are noted for adding spice to life and
I would suggest
		the judging should keep the JI sport.  Rather than
reject this flower, a
		good judge should know that this can happen in certain
cultivars and
		judge it as it is.  It is from the same plant and
genetically identical
		(although biochemically it is obviously different).
Thus, the problem
		is with the judging or the registration not the flower
itself.  Let us
		accept the facts and change the judging and registration
description to
		be more accurate and scientific.=20

		The Symposium was well worth the effort to attend.
Again,
		congratulations to Kathy and here helpers.  As to
whether Kathy met with
		my expectation, that would require another long e-mail
which would have
		to be prepared in cooperation with Dennis Hager!

		Ian, in Ottawa where we might have our first frost
tonight.
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