RE: Selfing
Also, we do a pretty good job of not growing the seed with bad
genetics...splitting, brittle plants, poor disease resistance, etc.
-Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: Smithhisler, Paul [P*@dnr.state.oh.us]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 7:36 AM
To: 'pumpkins@hort.net'
Subject: RE: Selfing
Well, this is why I didn't immediately respond when I read Cliff's
intro...Andrew already presented my idea.
What little I know about genetics, he is right. We are merely scratching
the surface when planting one or two seeds. We really need to be planting
at least a percentage of the seeds and growing them.
But there is another problem...you would have to do this for two
generations, grow seeds from all your crosses, in order to select the next
batch of seeds to grow. Remember, we don't know which traits the pumpkin
picked up from the male pollinator until those seeds are grown. (So if we
are working with ten seeds, we would have to grow the original ten plants,
then grow 100 plants [ten seeds from each offspring] the following year in
order to select the ones with the best traits.) I believe that what we are
doing, as individuals, is playing the odds on genetics.
There is an up-side...A seed is not considered a 'hot' seed until it
produces, showing it's genetic superiority. While there may be several
seeds out there with the same cross as the 567.5 Mombert, none of them have
produced as well. Next generation, we have the 846 Calai. Again, there are
several of the exact same crosses that created this seed, but none of them
have produced as well. Therefore, as a group, we are selecting this seed
for our next batch of genetic experiments.
I am not sure how accurate this application of genetics is, since the
results are skewed by different growing practices. Unless Fred Calai grows
several seeds from the same cross that grew his 846, and then several 'heavy
hitters' experiment with those seeds, we will never be able to achieve true
genetic success. Are we growing better genetics...yes. Are we growing the
best genetics...who knows.
-Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Papez [a*@cogeco.ca]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 8:41 AM
To: pumpkins@hort.net
Subject: Re: Selfing
Hi list,
The way they do it in corn is to take all the seeds from a cob and plant it,
then select the best cob(color, taste etc) from all those plants and then
plant all the seeds from that cob and repeat the whole process. This takes
years and we are only planting one or two seeds from each pumpkin. To
isolate the desirable traits in a pumpkin you would have to plant all the
seeds out of a particular pumpkin (cross) you are interested in and take the
most desirable(color, size weight etc) and plant all the seeds from that one
and repeat the whole process again. Maybe in ten years you would have
isolated the desirable traits. We are not currently doing that and is
impossible to isolate the genes from one or two seeds. Still a crap shoot
the way I see it.
drew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cliff Warren" <cliffrwarren@hotmail.com>
To: <pumpkins@hort.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: Selfing
> Mike and all:
>
> Great topic!
>
> I've been studying what has been said (written) by
> Nic Welty, Joe Ailts, Mike Nepereny and others.
> Here is what I understand about the F1/F2 hybrid
> theory: (note that this is theory...)
>
> * To create an F2, cross your fruit with something from the mother line.
> * F2's are created to enhance consistency.
> * A "self" or "sib" pollination qualifies as an F2.
> * Make an F1 by starting with an F2 and then crossing another line.
Ideally,
> one would hope to get some desirable characteristic from the new line.
> (Thick walls,
> nice color, etc.)
> * The worlds best seeds have had elements of this theory in their
> background, intentional or not.
>
> Note from history: which two seeds have had most
> impact? I would suggest the 935 Lloyd and 567.5 Mombert.
> Many hot seeds today, come from these lines, example:
> 723, 940 Mombert 98, etc.
>
> Each of these was created by some degree of inbreeding
> in the lines, to reduce the number of parents, keep the
> gene pool more pure and thus create consistency. Then,
> you introduce a new line. Perhaps this is where the
> concept of "hybrid vigor" comes in... not just from
> endlessly crossing, but by starting with two fairly
> pure sources and then crossing.
>
> Well anyway, I'm no expert, but any theory is fun to
> play with. I think it fits what we've seen.
>
> Take a look at the 846 Calai background. It takes
> fairly pure 567.5 Mombert genetics and crosses that
> with Lloyd, also fairly pure. That seed of course
> speaks for itself.
>
> Once again, great topic. Lets use this list!
>
> Regards, Cliff
>
>
>
> >From: Mike and Vickie Brock <vbrock@mcn.org>
> >Reply-To: pumpkins@hort.net
> >To: <pumpkins@hort.net>
> >Subject: Selfing
> >Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:56:37 -0800
> >
> >Here are some thoughts that I posted on BP.com and thought it a good
> >subject
> >to get going on both lists. So what are we seeing these days? Whats
> >working?
> >
> > Most of the hotties come from heterozygous(outbreed) parents. The idea
of
> >selfing is to isolate a gene that gives you a desired trait. It works
well
> >when you have a specific trait in mind like flavor or color. By selfing
you
> >can increase the probability of seeing the trait you want. But you can
also
> >drop traits such as vigor and disease resistance invisible traits. Of
> >course
> >the idea we want with selfing is to increase the predictability of
> >monsters.
> >I think that we are always going to be stuck with a small amount of seed
in
> >a batch that demonstrate huge and heavy and the rest somewhere in
between.
> >Why because there are many genes that contribute to that outcome and the
> >trait were looking for is so heavily influenced by the environmental
> >factors. If a gene is like a coin and the law of probability says you can
> >hit heads 50% of the time ...imagine the probability of lining up 5 coins
> >and hitting heads. So I don't see how selfing is going to work if you
don't
> >plant out the entire stock and pick the best....and do it again and again
> >what exactly are we trying to isolate large root system, triple tap roots
> >at
> >each junction...we have to be specific and all the seeds would have to be
> >treated equally........but the jury is still out...not enough data...to
> >know...MB
> >
> >Will the odds ever improve?
> >
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