Re: Pumpkin size - Seed size

     Steve, you say that "Evolution doesn't really have anything to do with
"babying" our plants." That doesn't really affect the genes at all"  I would
have to disagree.  Babying our plants doesn't allow undesirable traits fall
away, thus they are not evolving since evolution is the process of
eliminating these genes.  Babing the plants in the AG community is selecting
some good genes but also a lot of bad genes.  There are many genes that would
be selected against that we as growers don't allow.  And I would also have to
say that seed production is caused by stress.  Try keeping the nitrogen high
when trying to set fruit.  It doesn't work too well.  This is because the
plant feels no need to reproduce itself. 
     You also said "Of course we should also focus on  seed production, too.
But over time, this will take care of itself, since  obviously if there are
not many seeds, the trait that causes this will stop being passed on! "  I
don't think it is a specific gene that can be selected against.  I think it
is more of a gene that all plants have.  
     Greg

 --- Great Pumpkin <greatpumpkin99@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >Steve, I still don't think that these plants are evolving as you say.
> >Since evolution is a blind process that selects against undesirable jeans 
> >[You mean like anything from the "GAP FAT" line? [Sarcastic comment added 
> >by Steve. Steve couldn't help it. Steve apologizes. Don't send Steve the 
> >"Love Bug" because of it. Thank you.]]
> >instead of picking desirable ones, it seems as if we are just taking
> better
> >care of the plants and breading them better.  We are picking desirable 
> >traits
> >and masking undesirable traites by babing our plants from seed to pumpkin
> 5
> >months later.  We are keeping undesirable traits around.  For one, the
> size
> >of these pumpkins and leaves creates a huge surface area problem.  This
> >causes the plants to lose a ton of water.  Also, we take such good care of
> >these pumpkins that they may start producing fewer and fewer seeds.  To 
> >some
> >degree, plants make seeds in responce to stress.  When a plant feels it 
> >needs
> >to pass on more genes, it produces many seeds.  In fact, the fitness of a
> >plant is its ability to pass on genes to the next generation.  Look at 
> >Larry
> >Checkon's pumpkin.  He had no viable seeds.  It seems we may be producing
> >plants that are less fit.  This may end up being our limiting factor.
> 
> 
> Well, you have a point in your last sentence. We are breeding them for 
> traits that we are picking, which could lead to a weakness somewhere else. 
> But...."breeding the plants better" as you said, IS what I mean by the 
> evolution of the plants. None of these are really left to breed in the
> wild, 
> we are taking care of that. The plants are evolving by our hand, meaning 
> that the prominant genetic traits in our A.G. "gene pool" are conforming to
> 
> what plants we allow to survive and breed.
> Evolution doesn't really have anything to do with "babying" our plants.
> That 
> doesn't really affect the genes at all, but it can, as you say, mask some 
> undesirable traits, which we could be breeding in without knowing it. So 
> again, you have a point. I doubt that any A.G. cold really thrive in the 
> wild at all, since they have conformed to being "babied", with extra 
> fertilizers, insecticides, fungicides, etc. So any natural resistance
> traits 
> could have been bred out, since it was not one of the traits that we 
> selected for, and if it was, it was still reliant on some insecticides and 
> other chemicals.
> As for amount of seeds, I don't think it has to do with "stress", really.
> It 
> probably is just that since we are breeding for fruit size alone, the
> traits 
> for seed viability is being ignored, whereas in nature it would be a
> primary 
> focus since only pumpkins with viable seeds would be growing year after 
> year, therefore passing on that trait strongly.
> As for leaf surface, water loss, pumpkin size, etc. There shouldn't be any 
> problems with these situations, since, obviously, if these factors 
> negatively affect a plant maing it produce an inferior pumpkin (if any), 
> there will be no seeds to from them planted, (and hopefully no one will use
> 
> them as pollinators), therefore the traits that allow these situations will
> 
> not be passed on.
> I think nature can handle all of that, as long as we just grow these
> things, 
> and pick the best ones for crossing, with "BEST" including not only fruit 
> size, but taking into consideration splits, and anything else that prevents
> 
> the fruit from getting to what we want. Also COLOR could be a good factor
> to 
> consider, since pretty soon, these things are going to just look like big 
> yellow squash (SHHHHHH! THEY ARE PUMPKINS!), and we don't want that either!
> But it can get so complicated if you try to focus on too many factors. If 
> you just focus on the fruit, that is the only indicator we need to know how
> 
> "good" the plant is. Don't worry about leaf size/water loss, etc., let 
> nature sort that out. Plants that produce the fruit that is the best size, 
> shape and color, with no splits, etc., those are the genes we want to pass 
> on, whatever they might be. In other words, if it makes it to a weighoff
> and 
> you are near the top, you have good genes.  But you are right, it couldn't
hurt to give it a little 
> attention. Until we perfect cloning and genetic enginerring for 
> A.G.'s....but that's another story!
> 
> -Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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