I am trying to understand what the conflict is all about.
The first question that pops into my mind is: What information does the Cumulative Checklist of Siberian Irises have that is not available in any of the published AIS Checklists? In a (albeit quick) look at the 2000 Cumulative Check List nothing jumps out to me as additional information except that there is a call for descriptions of irises that have no (or at least an intelligible) description in the AIS Check Lists.
If that is the case then irisregister.com already has a lot of the information contained in the Cumulative Siberian Checklist. Granted not all the descriptions from the 1949 and 1939 Checklists are in irisregister YET, but we are getting there.
If the Wiki collects information from all sources as it seems to be doing from irisregister, then it is merely an alternative source. Whether this information collection is made easier by using the Cumulative Check List or not just dictates the time frame not the end result.
Now if the Cumulative Check List has additional information and claims trademark on that "additional" information, the issue gets a little more sticky. But if that were the case I would like to reference the citation on page 1 of the 2000 Cumulative Checklist that acknowledges the permission from the American Iris Society to use the information in the AIS Check Lists in the Siberian Checklist.
I have a lot if experience with the web and websites and I can tell you that the AIS wiki will send people to the Siberian website. We might even want to make a link to the Section websites a requirement for each page in the wiki that has a entry for in iris in that Section.
Creating a wiki is not a trivial mater, even on the "we do it for you" sites.
John
Irisregister webmaster
________________________________________________
USDA zone 8/9 (coastal, bay)
Fremont, California, USA
Director, American Iris Society
Chairman, AIS Committee for Electronic Member Services
On Jan 4, 2010, at 2:48 PM, Robert Pries wrote:
Terry you really are vicious. I think the master and his dog comment is a bit over the top.Why do you wish to divide the Siberian Society away from the AIS. The AIS president is the editor of the Siberian Checklist The president of the Siberian Societiys Husband is on the AIS Foundation We are one. Trying to marginalize the Siberians away from AIS seem ridiculous. The section was created to promote the Siberians by AIS members. I can not see how your warning that cooperating with the AIS wiki will diminish in any way Siberian Iris. there are exceptions, but I believe most members belong to both. and I am a life member of the Siberian Society also. You argue that AIS creating the wiki is going to harm the Siberian Society but then do not care if the Siberian Society forming a wiki would harm the AIS. You seem to be only concerned about your interests. I am creating a comprehensive encyclopedia for all Irises. It is not necessary that the Siberian Society cooperate. There are many members of both societies that would like to see a comprehensive database. Yes I think there would be competition between sites if one did both and they did the same thing. I happen to believe the comprehensive site could bring more people to Siberians than the solely Siberian site. Your attitude is why the various Irus groups accomplish less than their potential. If everyone followed your argument there would be ten wikis one for each group of Iris and Dave's garden would still be the premier source of Iris information on the internet because the search engines would direct people there first because it gets more hits. I not so much opposed to the Siberian having their own wiki as your emphasis on telling people not to cooperate wuth the one I am developing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Johnson" <tjatwork@orcon.net.nz>
To: sibrob@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2010 4:33:36 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [sibrob] Re: Iris Encyclopedia
Robert,
Thank you for your comments.
I find it is somewhat bemusing how some people lofty positions have such a poor understanding of the way the Internet actually works.
If we load all our Cumulative Checklist information onto the AIS web site, we will direct digital traffic away from the Siberian Iris Web site and to the AIS site that is a fact which you seem to ignore or fail to understand. Its just the way the Internet via the search engine process works. This is the danger for small Societies and the 'Quid pro quo' a link back to the Siberian web site which will not have the equivalent information has the effect of the AIS dominating a section.Whether this intentional or not is not the point
Talking to the Presidents of the other plant societies that you have listed would not give you any helpful information with regards to the uniqueness of the AIS situation where various smaller sections and cooperating societies attached to the Parent Society will be affected by corralling all their individual and unique species information on to one central site and digitally making these societies irrelevant by an act of so called kindness.
I am still of the opinion that both the AIS and SSI can have a Siberian Wiki attached to their respective web sites and should the SSI agree to this, the outcome of the SSI having its own Wiki will manage the above highlighted risks.For the SSI to do nothing now and try and play catch up at a later date is a risk I am advising the SSI not to take.
I have been contacted by members of other smaller sections and cooperating societies who are having exactly the same concerns in discussions that I am not a participant.
As a matter of interest, I joined and paid life membership of the SSI before I became a member of the AIS, so there is certainly nothing unique there.
Most insightful to see the analogy of a Master and his dog been used with reference to The Society for Siberian Irises.
Robert Pries wrote:
Marty and Jan should know by now that I have always been supportive of the sections and have done more work on sectional projects than most people long before I came to the AIS board, I do not remember Terry ever writing an article for the SSI bulletin, I sure it was not memorable but I can claim at least one. I started this project over five years ago hoping it would help all Iris societies. I agree we all need a better internet prescence. I thought I was being useful to all the groups and am a little dissappointed that Terry see this as AIS dominating a section. For heavens sake we are all supposed to be part of one big society but somehow it seems we are supposed to be competive with each other. I do not see this. I have a dog that when I give her a treat she misjudges and bites my finger. After awhile one does not give many treats. I thought I was doing something nice for the Siberian Society but I feel like my finger hurts.
While working on this project I have talked with the presidents of the Hemerocallis Society, The Rock Garden Society, and the director of the Daffodil Society plus the directer of the wiki of the pacific Bulb Society trying to see what their experiences have been. Presently what we are creating is much more open and free to everyone yet somehow that message does not seem to be heard. The reason there have been discussions about limiting access for posting, but not viewing is that there have been instances of people putting pornography up a least one plant wiki and that is why most are more closed that our system. If we encounter malevalence in the future we may have to limit access. But we are not trying to exclude or profit from this site.
I came to the Iris society through the dwarf section and the species section, later I joined AIS. My experience seems to be relatively unique. Most people join the Iris society and then discover various types of Iris and join the sections. It would seem to me that encouraging membership in AIS could only bring more people to the Siberian Section. If one looks at the wiki even while under construction it sends people to all the plant societies whether they are cooperating or not. I will continue to support the Siberian section whether they wish to support my efforts or not. This is not about just a certain group but about Iris.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jpwflowers@aol.com
To: sibrob@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 3, 2010 8:51:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [sibrob] Re: Iris Encyclopedia
Hi all,
When Terry's post came, Marty and I talked about it and our first reaction was that we didn't see why it mattered whether the Wiki for Siberians is in the AIS Wiki or on an SSI Wiki. Since AIS has already started it, why not just have it there. And what a wonderful thing it would be. But the ensuing posts shows how important it is for there to be a thorough discussion about this. I think wherever the Wiki is, it should be available to everyone, not just members of AIS or SSI. The thing that makes the internet so fabulous is that most of the information is free to anyone. I think plant societies, including AIS and SSI, should attract new members by the vitality of their society and not by making their on-line information exclusive to members only. We want to excite people about Iris growing and then they will want to be part of our organizations. The internet is an opportunity to reach people we never have before. (This concept was put forth very well by Anner Whitehead in the last BIS Yearbook.)
If AIS does not want to make this information available to all, then I think SSI should consider doing it on their own website. I was pleased to get the link to Daffseek. The information there is great and the pedigrees are a bonus. I am not a member of the Am Daffodil Society but the information on the site is valuable to me. Having such a good site might draw me into joining the society.
Maybe through a sharing of thoughts on this subject we can improve the whole project, or start a new one.
Jan Sacks
-----Original Message-----
From: tjnzatwork <tjatwork@orcon.
net.nz>
To: sibrob@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jan 2, 2010 3:10 pm
Subject: [sibrob] Re: Iris Encyclopedia
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL
This subject of the Iris encyclopedia needs to be discussed within the SSI and it is important that the Society for Siberian Iris gets more air . Why not start our own Wiki for Siberians as the SSI checklist is the best example of a Cumulative Check list that I have seen so why should all that hard work be to the advantage of another Iris Society.There is a mountain of photos of siberians within the membership and as we are well aware the culture of Siberian Irises is relatively young and most of the legendary Hybridisers are still alive to place there own thoughts on their fantastic breeding efforts, so Why not???
The Daffodil Society started a site
Daffseek just pull down the Division and select and then select a country press 'submit query' and "Voilà " Check out the Pedigree Chart.
If we have an asset in our society we should think seriously before we give it away,which is what Bob is asking, and if we do give it away how hard will it be for the Society for Siberian Iris to stay relevant in this digital world.
As our Cumulative Check list is already digital in the form of a word doc it would only take weeks to get a wiki type function attached to our existing Web Site.
--- In sibrob@yahoogroups.
com, Robert Pries <robertpries@...> wrote:
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> Here is a new site under development that needs your help. The Americn Iris Society is creating an online encyclopedia of Iris. If you are familiar with the wikipedia than you know what the potential is for this site. At first glance you may think it is only and online illustrated checklist of every type of Iris. You would be correct but it will be much more. There are 65,000 entries in the AIS checklists and ultimately all will have their own page, up to 20 pictures for each and a chance for scores of people to add information. Presntly we have a small crew that in the last couple of monthes have put up over 1,000 cultivars but our goal is to have at least 10,000 pages up before it appears to the world on the AIS website. Presently the beginning of the alphabet has the most entries and medians and MDBs have the most pages up. We need your help to give the Siberians the representation they deserve. I invite you to visit the beginnings and see if you would like to be a part of this monumental venture. If so send me an e-mail at robertpries@... and let me know. but first go to this url and take a look:
>
> http://wiki.irises.org/bin/view
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ellen Gallagher" ellengalla@...
> To: sibrob@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 1:26:58 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: [sibrob] test message
>
> Â
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> Happy Holidays!
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