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Re: Hybrid&heirloom was Garden Plan 98

Havi Hoffman wrote:
> 
> At 06:21 AM 12/6/97 -0800, Steve wrote:
> >"Heirloom" is a rather vague term that refers to older varieties of a
> >plant.  They are virtually always "O.P." which means "Open Pollinated"
> >as opposed to hybridized.  Hybrids are simply plants which have
> >controlled pollination.  (Kind of like monogamy, as opposed to the
> >promiscuous nature of OP's.)  Hybrids are *not* genetically engineered
> >or in any way genetically different from OP plants.  (Except, of course,
> >inasmuch as any two plants of the same species are genetically
> >different.)
> 
> If you are interested in saving seed from your own garden then your
> preference will be for heirloom or OP varieties--the seeds of hybrids are
> unpredictable and not true to type.  F1 refers to a first generation hybrid
> cross--these are usually the most vigorous. I can't claim to understand the
> genetics of it all but I've read some interesting articles on the subject.
>

I suppose I'll end up regretting this, but here is a simplified look at
hybridization:

1.  One or more open pollinated plants are selected from a large
population for some desirable characteristic such as yield, disease
resistance, perfomance under certain conditions, etc

2.  These plants are *interbred* among themselves (this is called "line
breeding"), with only the descendants that show the best performance in
whatever catagory selected for being carried over to the next
generation.

3.  After several generations of line breeding a plant has been
naturally selected that has the gene for the chosen characteristic
heavily reinforced.  Of course (and here's one important bit) several
genes with negative characteristics are reinforced as well.  So you may,
for instance, end up with a plant with very high yield but poor disease
resistance.  That's no good, because it doesn't matter how much they are
capable of yielding if they all get sick and die before they mature!

4.  So, meanwhile, a second strain of the same species of plant is line
bred for disease resistance (using the example from above).  These
plants, however, may have poor or erratic yield.

5.  The final step is to cross-pollinate the two lines to form a high
yielding, disease resistant variety.  (This is the "first cross" that
Havi refers to.)

The next generation of these plants, however, will revert to some of the
line characteristics.  Some percentage (50% in our simplified example)
would have the negative characteristics of one of the original lines,
25% would have the negative characteristics of *both* lines, and only
25% of the seed would be like the hybrid parent.  That's why you
shouldn't save the seed of a hybrid.

(Although Steve Solomon is experimenting with extracting "heirloom"
varieties from hybrids by intentionally breeding the descendants of
hybrids and selecting for "generic" traits.)

The point here is that nothing has been done to chemically or
genetically alter the plant.  The genes have merely been selected
through breeding.  This has been going on for centuries with animals
(just look at the variety in dogs, for instance).  

Genetic engineering, the insertion of genes from other species is very
new and of some concern, however, at least to me.  Tomatoes, potatoes,
soy, cotton and canola are the current victims of this manipulation, and
I am personally curtailing the use of these products from commercial
sources.


> >On the other hand, many hybrids have better vigor in marginal
> >conditions, produce larger quantities of food and have greater disease
> >resistance than their OP cousins.
> 
> OTOH, certain heirloom varieties have been regionally adapted for specific
> climates and conditions over generations, and maybe just right for a
> specific set of marginal conditions.  When I grew tomatoes in a greenhouse

Yes.  I was unclear in my orig post.  Most hybrids are bred for specific
climate conditions to support commercial growers.  Most commercial
growers do not grow what is "marginal" for their location; they grow
what grows best where they are.  Locally produced, open-pollinated
varieties are sometimes better than hybrids for unusual or extreme
conditions (such as tomatoes in Alaska).  

Although, if the market is there, someone will hybridize those OP
varieties that grow well in those marginal conditions for the home
gardener.  Dr. James Baggett at the University of Oregon has developed
many hybrids that a specifically intended for the maritime gardener, not
the commercial grower.  Nobody grows tomatoes commercially in the
maritime Pac NW, but several hybrids have been developed from some of
those arctic tomatoes that Havi mentioned that do very well in the
maritime climate.


> in Alaska's Matanuska valley, I was always on the lookout for
> Siberian/Scandinavian and other northern latitude heirloom or hybrid
> varieties from climes like my own.  One way is to find seed vendors from
> geographically similar areas.  You might want to try Johnny's Selected
> Seeds in Maine or Richter's Herbs (they sell veggie seed too) in southern

Or Territiorial Seed company for Maritime Pacific Northwest (U.S. and
Canada) gardeners.  They're my only seed company for 14 years now.  

Steve  (Maritime Climate -- USDA Zone irrelevant)

(P.S. Upon reading my orig post, I see that I related hybridization to
monogamy: "incest" may have been a more perfect analogy :-)) 

> Ontario.
> They are both on the Web--
> http://www.johnnyseeds.com/
> http://www.richters.com/
> 
> I have a big list of online seed catalogs at my Web site:
> http://vegetablegarden.miningco.com/msub11.htm
> 
> Johnny's used to sell an heirloom tomato called "Moskvich" --which did very
> well up north and was very flavorful, and one called "Kotlas" very early
> and prolific if not quite as delicious.
> 
> And then just as Steve says--experiment and find out what's working for
> other gardeners in your area.
> 
> There's also a pepper website of someone growing peppers in Maine--you
> might check out:
> http://firegirl.com/growing.html
> 
> cheers
> Havi
> 
> Havi Hoffman
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