Re: Pinellias and weedy aroids (was Synandrospadix breeding)

Hi Airlan,

"I think it has to be defined in some way if we are to get a handle on which species to prioritize in terms of control."

I agree 100%, you need a definition upon which as many people as possible can agree. And I happen to think the one you cite is not bad - not that anyone whose opinion matters is likely to care about my opinion.

But regardless of how good or bad a definition it is, I hear people using the term "invasive" to mean wildly different things, which confuses people hearing it. And it now carries an emotional context that for many people outweighs any rational consideration of whether the person using it is actually someone knowledgeable who has data to back up the label or not.

There are, of course, environments that are so sensitive that lots of exotic plants are invasive in them, and there are plants that so aggressive as to be invasive almost anywhere by pretty much anyone's definition and I'm not suggesting otherwise. And I'm confident we can find examples of them being introduced by pretty much every pathway we can imagine. (Several decades ago, when I first became interested in the Arkansas native flora, I was horrified to be told that the state of Arkansas was STILL deliberately planting Lonicera japonica in remote areas as "deer browse", even though the only problem with the state's deer population was too many.) But in my experience, a lot of people react emotionally rather than rationally to that word, and it's applied almost indiscriminately to plants whose behavior where they've been introduced varies widely. There are people who apply it to EVERY species they define as "non-native", even if the species extended its range, as far as we can tell, on its own and without human help. (I have a specific example in mind.)

I don't think we should abandon the concept. I have wondered if we should just find a new term and do a better job of protecting the meaning so that it doesn't get eroded or co-opted the way invasive has. Again, not that anyone cares what I think ...

Steve

On 6/26/2023 6:04 PM, a sunjian wrote:
" I try to avoid the term "invasive" because I think it's ill-defined. I've heard people use it in situations ranging from "I found one seedling of this plant 5 feet from where I planted it originally, therefore it's invasive" to "my back 40 acres was swallowed by this thing". That's mild hyperbole for effect, but you get the idea."

I think it has to be defined in some way if we are to get a handle on which species to prioritize in terms of control.

I believe the definition most used is one that was written in Executive Order 13112, then clarified in a paper called "Invasive Species Definition Clarification and Guidance White Paper", which was submitted by the Definitions Subcommittee of the Invasive Species Advisory Committee (ISAC) and approved in April 27, 2006.

An invasive species is any species that is non-native to the ecosystem under consideration and whose introduction causes or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health. These invasive species aggressively compete with and displace the associated flora and fauna communities.

I believe what falls into this needs to be considered on a case by case basis, and in the end, the list of invasives pushed by various organizations is much smaller than the list of non-natives. This is then used by the federal and state governments to set up their monitoring systems and noxious and prohibited plant lists. Some are so bad that it is actually illegal to move the plant within the state or grow it.






On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 6:11 PM Steve Marak <samarak@gizmoworks.com> wrote:
Pinellias and Arum italicum are the aroids I hear people complaining about in temperate gardens. But, with a nod to what Tony said, there more to it than just genus or species.

I've been given starts of Pinellia pedatisecta several times. It hasn't survived here, much less become a problem. A friend in Kansas City gave me starts of P. ternata and P. tripartita, both of which I often see listed as problem plants. His clones are not - both have remained in bounds here, making small clumps a couple of feet across in more than 20 years. But a second clone of P. ternata from a different source is a whole other thing, and I would not want it on the loose outside, nor would I want it to cross with the KC clone.

I had Arum italicum outdoors here for about 20 years and it was very well behaved, a couple of clumps in the semi-shady area where I'd put it. Then I was given a second clone. Now I'm rooting it out everywhere, from deep shade to hours of direct sun.

I try to avoid the term "invasive" because I think it's ill-defined. I've heard people use it in situations ranging from "I found one seedling of this plant 5 feet from where I planted it originally, therefore it's invasive" to "my back 40 acres was swallowed by this thing". That's mild hyperbole for effect, but you get the idea. I've also heard it applied to a plant simply because it is vigorous but not "native", which I find odd because the most aggressive species in my yard, Campsis radicans (Trumpet Creeper) is certainly a native. (Second and third places, Toxicodendron radicans [Poison Ivy] and Phytolacca americana [Pokeweed], also go to natives, though a couple of non-native Lonicera species are in the running.)

I've also seen species which I initially feared would be aggressive and hard to control turn out to be quite the opposite. I bought a start of a vining asclepiad from Asia, Metaplexis japonica, years ago. The 2nd year it was growing vigorously. By the 3rd year, I was afraid I'd unleashed a monster - it was 20+ feet up in the trees, scads of it. The only reasons I didn't hack it all back immediately were that it never made seeds here, and our local insects loved it - more insects visited the Metaplexis than almost any of the native plants we grow. But then, without me doing anything whatever, it began to decline, less and less appearing each year. This year a single shoot popped up and I've been coddling it, trying to keep it alive. Same with Malva sylvestris - seeded all over my yard for about 5 years, then, without me doing anything to control it, gradually faded away.

Steve

On 6/25/2023 8:09 PM, Don Martinson wrote:
Pinellia pedatisecta, is the bane of my garden here in Wisconsin.  The foliage is not unpretty, but the inflorescence is pretty much “meh”.  In addition, they have prodigious fecundity.  One of my summer weeding duties is remove the  inflorescences as soon as I spot them.  If grown in a large pot, they can be used as a patio decoration as long as care is taken not to let them escape.


On Jun 25, 2023, at 2:56 PM, Hannon <o*@gmail.com> wrote:

Just to circle back, I wonder if members have any observations on weedy aroids? Are there any truly invasive ones? I'm thinking of Arum italicum, Pinellia, Pistia, other aquatics?

Dylan




That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history. --Aldous Huxley











On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 21:13, a sunjian <a*@gmail.com> wrote:
" it is apparent that so-called weeds and most "invasives" hold no ground where native vegetation is intact. Unless they can exploit a new trail or road or other disturbance, including too frequent fires, "invasive" plants tend to remain in disturbed areas."

Yep, agreed. Many invasive species are disturbance specialists, and do flourish where there is human disturbance. 

However, there are some invasives that have no problems dominating the native species even in relatively undisturbed situations, whether it's because they left behind their diseases and predators in their origin location and are thus pretty fit in the new location, or simply because they really are darn competitive. 

Examples might include cogon grass (Imperata cylindrica, which can overwhelm native vegetation fairly easily in the southeast even in pristine areas), as well as some of the winter annual grasses (medusahead or Taeniatherum caput-medusae for example) that are currently decimating much of the Great Basin (though these use a feedback loop mechanism to create their own fire disturbance). In the past, exotic annual grasses from Eurasia overwhelmed the native bunchgrasses over such a large area that human disturbance was likely only a minor component of their eventual success.

We can probably take this off-group as it is forking the thread, and going beyond aroid topics. Feel free to email me directly!



On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 6:12 PM Hannon <o*@gmail.com> wrote:
Regarding invasive species, a factor often neglected in reasoning through the problem is human disturbance. Having performed many botanical surveys in CA, it is apparent that so-called weeds and most "invasives" hold no ground where native vegetation is intact. Unless they can exploit a new trail or road or other disturbance, including too frequent fires, "invasive" plants tend to remain in disturbed areas. In some cases this is a good thing-- think of grazing areas stripped of shrub cover and now covered by non-native grasses. Without that cover there would be massive erosion in many parts of CA for example.

"Protecting endangered plants in situ is always the better solution, as it is part of the local ecology.."

Agreed but this is comparing apples to oranges. Any plant in cultivation is not "protected" in any ecological or biological sense-- no pollinators, genetic diversity, seedling recruitment, etc. Plants brought under our care, for a range of reasons and for a very long time, are on a different (and mostly fatal) trajectory.

Governments managing wild areas is completely different from governments controlling ex situ diversity. It seems reasonable to me that there should be controls to limit the damage of diseases, pests and sometimes the plants themselves. But no amount of human activity-- regulated or not-- can "save" rare species.

Dylan







That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history. --Aldous Huxley











On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 at 18:53, a sunjian <a*@gmail.com> wrote:
Most invasive plants in the US were either intentionally brought to the US by authorized governments 

Many of the worst invasives that are causing havoc were brought in via the horticultural trade or for forage.. 

" Again, my vote is return to 2.8 million year old idea that plants belong to humankind, not governments."

Those governments represent the people of those countries, and like the land and water and other resources of those countries, the local people should have better collective say in the area than some foreign obsessive collector or greedy seller of plants. 

Protecting endangered plants in situ is always the better solution, as it is part of the local ecology..

When this is not possible, or as a backup, I am all for the regulated flow of plants internationally (after careful study of its potential for harm), especially if endangered species can be saved.

And obviously, pushing for completely unregulated international movement of plants and animals is just...well, stupid. 


On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 6:00 PM Tony Avent <T*@plantdelights.com> wrote:

Appreciate the comments, but I’ll have to respectfully disagree. 

 

Most invasive plants in the US were either intentionally brought to the US by authorized governments (think kudzu, multiflora rose, lespedeza, etc.  or accidentally, in shipments of other non-plant items. Furthermore, most of these plants would not be classified invasive by non-native humans, if they were growing in functional natural ecosystems, but it’s intellectually simpler to just blame the “bad” plants.  I’m further fascinated that some people have such a zealous hangup about invasive ornamental plants, when other non-native species like Homo sapiens, honeybees, and non-native earthworms cause ecological change on the order of 1000x that of all “invasive plants” combined.  Then of course, there are the non-native edible plants to feed the non-native humans, both of which take up massively more area than all of the non-native ornamental plants every introduced.  Some people seem determined to put everything  in a “good” or “bad” bucket, based on what are often myopic views of the world.

 

Then of course, there is the entire concept of what is native.  This fascinatingly need for putting everything into boxes, usually fails to realize that “native” is not a place in location, but is instead a place in time.  Still, people call certain races of people in North American, native Americans.  Unfortunately, this misnomer simply reflects a humorous artificial distinction based on whether the Homo sapiens came to North America across the Pacific Ocean or the Atlantic Ocean, separated by a period of ~15,000 years.

 

In my humble opinion, giving governments, especially unfunctional bureaucracies, more control over what plants they share is exactly the current problem.  Humans would mostly likely not exist today without the free flow of plant germplasm, which has been shared and moved since the beginnings of the genus Homo circa 2.8 million year ago. It’s fascinating that some people have an insatiable need for the world to be static and long for a return to a magical Camelotian place and time. 

 

Again, my vote is return to 2.8 million year old idea that plants belong to humankind, not governments.

 

Tony Avent

Proprietor

t*@plantdelights.com

Juniper Level Botanic Garden and Plant Delights Nursery

Ph 919.772.4794/fx 919.772.4752

9241 Sauls Road, Raleigh, North Carolina  27603  USA

USDA Zone 7b/Winter 0-5 F/Summer 95-105F

"Preserving, Studying, Propagating, and Sharing the World’s Flora”

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From: Aroid-L <aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com> On Behalf Of a sunjian
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2023 9:12 AM
To: Discussion of aroids <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Synandrospadix breeding

 

I am all for being able to move plants after careful consideration and approval from the host country, but unauthorized and unstudied movement of living plant material between areas can result in ecological disasters. Most of the invasive problems we have today are because of such movements in the past.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:45 AM Tony Avent <T*@plantdelights.com> wrote:

Sharing of rare plants used to be acceptable, even encouraged, back when plant genetics were considered to belong to humankind.  Sadly, now, plants are viewed as belonging to the current country of origin. This greed-based, short-sighted view is leading to far more plants going extinct.  One of many such stories is when the late Alan Galloway found a new amorphophallus species in Central Thailand.  Because he didn’t have official permission from the Thailand government to collect a sample, he subsequently had to publish it without a specific location.  When he revisited the site five years later, the entire small mountain on which it grew had been destroyed for gravel production.  We all must work to reverse this said trend and return to a time when plant genetics belonged to everyone.

 

Tony Avent

Proprietor

t*@plantdelights.com

Juniper Level Botanic Garden and Plant Delights Nursery

Ph 919.772.4794/fx 919.772.4752

9241 Sauls Road, Raleigh, North Carolina  27603  USA

USDA Zone 7b/Winter 0-5 F/Summer 95-105F

"Preserving, Studying, Propagating, and Sharing the World’s Flora”

<image001.png>

Since 1988, Plant Delights Nursery is THE Source for unique, rare and native perennial plants.

 

 

From: Aroid-L <aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com> On Behalf Of Steve Marak
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2023 8:13 PM
To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
Subject: Re: [Aroid-l] Synandrospadix breeding

 

Same here, I'll share pollen, or accept pollen, of whatever species I have. My Synandrospadix has its second inflorescence up, and based on past experience there will be a few more this summer.

Steve

On 6/22/2023 3:16 PM, Jessica Holbrook wrote:

Delayed response on this thread here, my apologies. 

 

I would love to be involved in these types of collaborations when I have plants of age to be putting out inflos; right now I am only there with Alocasias.

 

If you’re interested &/or looking for additional participants in these kinds of endeavors please keep me in mind if you like—I am also more than happy to try to acquire specific plants to participate! Certainly never a burden to expand the collection! 😂 

 

Thanks all,

:) Jess

 

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 12:22 D. Christopher Rogers <b*@gmail.com> wrote:

I no longer have the plant, or I would offer mine up for the experiment.  But I do think that those of you who have this species, should consider sending each other offsets, so that all can start propagating and sharing the seeds. The IAS membership used to do this sort of thing all the time decades ago. It was important to the membership to get these plants out into the hobby, especially as so many species were disappearing from the wild. Julius Boos, Steve Lucas, Tom Croat, Dewey Fisk, and so many others used to share material just to get rare species out into the hobby. This makes so many hard to find species more generally available, builds networks of breeders, develops relationships, and conserves the species.

 

Happy days,

Christopher

 

On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 11:12, Steve Marak <samarak@gizmoworks.com> wrote:

Christopher,

Love to!

Wilbert told me many years ago that only young Synandrospadix will make offsets and, as usual, it seems he's right. I got one offset from my plant many years ago (that's the one I tried outdoors), and none since.

But I'd be happy to collect pollen from mine and send it to to others.

Steve

On 6/2/2023 11:03 AM, D. Christopher Rogers wrote:

Anyone want to share clones and try to get some genetic diversity into the hobby populations?

 

Christopher

 

On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 11:00, Don Martinson <l*@wi.rr.com> wrote:

I’ve tried this as well, Steve.  That’s why I ask.  Thanks.

Don

> On Jun 2, 2023, at 10:52 AM, Steve Marak <samarak@gizmoworks.com> wrote:
>
> Don, for what it's worth I've tried to self my single clone several times and never gotten any seed.
>
> Steve
>

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