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RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?

  • Subject: RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?
  • From: "Alistair Hay" <ajmhay@hotmail.com>
  • Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 08:30:17 +1100

It was in honor of your MIND :-)

From: "Wilbert Hetterscheid" <hetter@xs4all.nl>
Reply-To: Discussion of aroids <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>
To: "'Discussion of aroids'" <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>
Subject: RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:44:51 +0100

Well, it is not my immediate business (the question is not addressed to me), but this Australian Brugmansia guy is talking about "gargantuan" Amorphophallus cultivar named after me................. Somehow there is a (hardly) hidden hint in there. I will send a lawyer upon everyone's feeble body who uses my name in dishonour.............and this lawyer will clean you out in no time!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Van: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com [mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] Namens Hermine
Verzonden: zondag 18 maart 2007 19:47
Aan: Discussion of aroids
Onderwerp: RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?

may I have permission to quote your remarks on cultivar naming?


I hesitate, with Wilbert and Gearoge's great experience present here, to suggest how to move forward! But only briefly lol. I don't mind being shot down in flames and will probably learn something useful as I am currently up to the armpits in cultivar registration for another group (Brugmansia)

Given that this has got off to false starts, I would strongly advocate not trying to create an all-encompassing system first off: that looks to me as though it would all fall over again. Adopt the KISS principle and get something happening which can be improved in time.

Also remember that cultivar registration is voluntary: if the system created is onerous and boring to comply with, people won't.

An often-encountered misunderstanding is that cultivar registration is equivalent to cultivar naming, It is not. A cultivar can be named (i.e. the name formally established) in almost any form of publication (bar newspapers and a few other things (see 2004 Code)). So if you name a cv in a printed nursery catalogue and there is even a one-word description of it, and the publication is dated, the name is established provided it meets some other technical requirements (which most cultivar epithets do). Registration simply means that the ICRA accepts that the cultivar has been properly named somewhere and has incorporated it into its Register (which can be nothing more elaborate than an excel spreadsheet or even a scrap-book!). The Registration process is there to assist the ICRA in gathering the information it is responsible for managing.

1. As ICRA for Aroids IAS sh/could (I suggest) devote some pages ("ICRA pages") at the back of Aroideana to the publication of new cultivar names (if this is not happening already - sorry, I am out of touch!). Later these pages can also be used to publish determinations on the validity of names where issues arise that need a decision.

A simple format for publishing a new cv is

Amorphophallus 'Wilbert's Surprise'   [PHOTO]

Seed parent: A. titanum (un-named clone); Pollen parent: A. prainii (un-named clone)

Hybridiser: George W. Bush; Seedling Parent [if different from hybridiser]: Tony Blair

[OR Discoverer: John Howard (if the cultivar has in effect been 'found' - in the wild, as an accidental seedling, as a sport etc]

Origin: USA; Introduced: 2006

Salient features: Spathe xxx, etc etc (keeping this to the minimum necessary to capture the distinctive points). Note: this may evolve into the bulk of a registration form designed around different genera/tribes, but I suggest do this when the need arises and when you know exactky why it is needed rather than designing elaborate registration forms up front.

Name established: here [or if publishng a cultivar whose name is established elsewhere, give the reference.]

IMO this covers the key stuff to start with.

If this (or something sinmilar) is adopted it may encourage people to publish cultuvars in Aroideana rather than in obscure price lists printed off a home PC - which is currently permitted under the 2004 Code and is a $%^&#@ nuisance!.

2. An online Register is set up to, at first, accommodate the new cultivars published in Aroideana with the same information and pics, and to which are added all established cultivar names in Araceae as they are gathered up by the Registrar and anyone assisting over time!

The online registry includes the template for publishing new cvs in Aroideana (outlined above), and Aroid-L, IAS website and perhaps Dave;s Garden are used to announce the deadlines for submission of new cultivars for establishmens in Aroideana each year. As the designated ICRA you are, I believe, responsible fior providing this service to members and non-members alike.

This seems to me to be the minimum necessary to make this work. I have not discussed nomenclatural standards and other recomendations of the Code, in the belief that f you try to do it all perfectly at once it all just seems too much!

Apologes if you have been over all this already!!










From:  "Julius Boos" <ju-bo@msn.com>
Reply-To:  Discussion of aroids <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>
To:  aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
Subject:  RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?
Date:  Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:33:21 +0000
>>From : Alistair Hay <ajmhay@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To : Discussion of aroids <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>
>Sent : Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:14 AM
>To : aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
>Subject : RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?
>Dear aroid Friends,
>First off, thanks to my friends George Schmid, Wilbert Hetterschied
>and Alistair Hay for their most informative comments on registering
>I wrote to the L on behalf of Brian Williams, so hopefully he is
>better informed on what registering a cultivar involves.   I guesss
>the NEXT big hurdle is---where does he register an aroid cultivar,
>with whom, and HOW does he go about doing so!!  :--)
>Good Growing!
>Pared down to the basics, the only salient part of a cultivar that
>comes under the ICBN is the genus. The cultivar name at the minimum
>consists of the genus name and the cv epithet.
>It does not matter all that much whether the plant is a selected
>man-made hybrid or a selection from  a wild species or a selection
>from a natural hybrid population. The thing that is to be named is a
>clone, selected for some merit, within a genus.
>Thus: the gargantuan white-spathed Amorphophallus 'Wilbert's
>Surprise' can be  defined, named, established and registered
>provided it is distinct from other cultivars of Amorphophallus,
>uniform and stable  regardless of what species or hybrid it is. Of
>course it would be nice to have the information that it is an f2
>hybrid of A. titanum and A. prainii, but that it not a necessary
>piece of information to name the cv. [I have made this example up,
>just in case anyone was wondering!].
>The sort of problem that George raises would, I think, arise in
>specific circumstances where there was an intention to transfer a
>latin botanical epithet into a cultivar name. This can only be done
>where the entire taxon is a clone. A possible example is Aliocasia
>zebrina var tigrina: If it can be demonstrated that var. tigrina is
>a clone then that botanical varietal epithet can become the cultivar
>epithet as in Alocasia 'Tigrina'. If it is not clear whether var.
>tigrina is a clone then there are simpler solutions than DNA and
>field analysis. Either don't transfer the latin epithet at all, or
>translate it into a contemporary language e.g. Alocasia 'Tigrine'
>applied to the cultivated clone known now as "tigrina". That way the
>exact status of the botanical variety does not need to be found out
>at all, while a familiar name (slightly adjusted) can be retained as
>a cultivar epithet.
>What I am getting at is that the issues which George raises, while
>valid, should not necessarily create the impression of vast hurdles
>to getting things going with Aroid cv classifictaion.
>    From:  "W. George Schmid" <hostahill@bellsouth.net>
>    Reply-To:  Discussion of aroids <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>
>    To:  "'Discussion of aroids'" <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>
>    Subject:  RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?
>    Date:  Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:11:33 -0400
>    >
>    >Julius,
>    >Some time ago we had an exchange on registering aroid cultivars
>    >PLANTS 2004 edition). I made some suggestions and Derek worked
>on this also.
>    >Perhaps we can refresh our previous conversations and efforts.
>The problem I
>    >see in Araceae is to determine which aroids are valid taxa to
>be handled
>    >under the ICBN and which are in fact cultivated varieties
>(man-made hybrids)
>    >to be registered under the ICNCP. One of the problems we had
>under Hosta
>    >were the numerous interspecific, natural hybrids existing in
>the wild. We
>    >solved that problem by field investigations and accepted such
>hybrids as
>    >taxa if perpetuating populations were found to exist in the
>wild. In some
>    >cases, the holotypes were based on cultivated plants
>purportedly collected
>    >in the wild, but lacking field verification were reduced to
>cultivars under
>    >the ICNCP and so registered. From some of the earlier messages
>I deduce that
>    >interspecific hybridization may also be a problem with aroids.
>To determine
>    >synonymy, RAPD/DNA was employed to make the differentiations.
>That is an
>    >expensive process, though. It seems to me that a number of
>aroids in
>    >cultivation are not taxa (valid species) but culta (cultivars).
>    >
>    >W. George Schmid
>    >Hosta Hill R. G.
>    >USDA Zone 7a - 1188 feet (361m) AMSL
>    >84-12'-30" W 33-51' N
>    >All mail virus-scanned by McAfee
>    >
>    >
>    >-----Original Message-----
>    >From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com
>[ mailto:aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com]
>    >On Behalf Of Julius Boos
>    >Sent: Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 17:28
>    >To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
>    >Subject: RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?
>    >
>    >
>    >
>    > >From : Brian Williams <pugturd@alltel.net>
>    >Reply-To : Discussion of aroids <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>
>    >Sent : Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:20 AM
>    >To : Discussion of aroids <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com>
>    >Subject : [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?
>    >
>    >
>    >Dear Brian,
>    >
>    >This all goes back to an issue that to date has not been
>'solved' by the
>    >aroid group, and which is a VERY difficult issue, namely the
>cultivar names
>    >and the correct registering of these names according to
>    >horticultural rules/laws that may apply.
>    >The IAS has nominated several people over the past several
>years ( I can
>    >recall at least three)  to do something about setting up some
>sort of
>    >registry to legitimize some or all of these names which are
>being bantered
>    >about, but to date I think the progress on instituting this
>system is not in
>    >place or even being worked on.
>    >I have mentioned on several occasions that when man collectes a
>    >plant from nature, he usually selects one which to him is the
>    >attractive out of several hundred, maybe thousands of other
>    >attractive' specimens he may see in the field.   All of these
>plants, both
>    >the 'attractive' ones AND the less attractive ones are still
>all variations
>    >of ONE species.
>    >All I can suggest at this time is that you make a label that
>explains what
>    >the particular clone or var. of that plant is, for example
>    >stenolobum var. narrow/wavy/long leaf, and/or P. stenolobum
>var. short and
>    >broad leaf, or 'Anthurium warocqueanum var. Murline Lydon
>minature', vs.
>    >'Anthu. warocqueanum var. large leaf '.   Collection data and
>    >name would be another good bit of information to keep with all
>    >collected plants.
>    >Perhaps Derek Burch can give some sort of suggestion or
>soloution that may
>    >serve you guys better??
>    >
>    >The  Best,
>    >
>    >Julius
>    >
>    > >>I have recently been trying to up grade my data base of
>names as well
>    > >>as redo all my tags and make sure everything has as much
>data and
>    > >>information as possible. I have a few questions on forms. I
>know many
>    > >>plants have several forms of the same species. I would like
>to know if
>    > >>their are names for these forms or even if the science
>community really
>    >makes note of it?
>    > >>If not would putting a added portion to the name to help ID
>    > >>forms be possible? If so who should come up with these name?
>Here are
>    > >>a few for instance off hand that I really think should have
>some more
>    > >>information.  Their seems to be two very different forms of
>    > >>one with wider leaves and much larger ripples. Then another
>form with
>    > >>thinner leaves and a much more rippled effect. I know that
>naming all
>    > >>slight different forms would not be worth while but for some
>    > >>noticeable differences it could help people know exactly
>what they are
>    > >>getting and their seems to be a major price difference in
>one form
>    > >>compared to the other. Another one that comes to mind is the
>two forms
>    > >>of Anthurium warocqueanum one that can get 3 to 4 feet long
>and the
>    > >>smaller slender form with hardly any back lobes. They are
>    > >>noticeably different yet go by the exact same name. If one
>was to
>    > >>order the plant under these name they could end up with
>either form
>    > >>though one form of each is usually much more sought after.<<
>    >_______________________________________________
>    >Aroid-l mailing list
>    >Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
>    > http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
>    >
>    >
>    >_______________________________________________
>Aroid-l mailing list
> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l

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