RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?
- Subject: RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?
- From: &* H* <h*@xs4all.nl>
- Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:13:27 +0100 (CET)
I KNEW that, I KNEW that................
>It was in honor of your MIND
> Well, it is not my immediate business (the question
> is not addressed to me), but this Australian Brugmansia guy is talking
> about "gargantuan" Amorphophallus cultivar named after
> me................. Somehow there is a (hardly) hidden hint in there. I
> will send a lawyer upon everyone's feeble body who uses my name in
> dishonour.............and this lawyer will clean you out in no
> time!!!!!!!!!!!!! </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=031294016-19032007><FONT face=Arial
> color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=031294016-19032007><FONT face=Arial
> color=#0000ff size=2>Wilbert</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
> BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=nl dir=ltr align=left>
> <HR>
> <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>Van:</B> aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com
> [aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com] <B>Namens
> </B>Hermine<BR><B>Verzonden:</B> zondag 18 maart 2007 19:47<BR><B>Aan:</B>
> Discussion of aroids<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B> RE: [Aroid-l] Names for
> different forms?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
> <DIV></DIV>may I have permission to quote your remarks on cultivar
> naming?<BR><BR>hermine<BR><BR>
> <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="">I hesitate, with Wilbert and Gearoge's
> great experience present here, to suggest how to move forward! But only
> briefly lol. I don't mind being shot down in flames and will probably
> learn something useful as I am currently up to the armpits in cultivar
> registration for another group (<I>Brugmansia)<BR></I><BR>Given that this
> has got off to false starts, I would strongly advocate not trying to
> create an all-encompassing system first off: that looks to me as though it
> would all fall over again. Adopt the KISS principle and get something
> happening which can be improved in time.<BR><BR>Also remember that
> cultivar registration is voluntary: if the system created is onerous and
> boring to comply with, people won't.<BR><BR>An often-encountered
> misunderstanding is that cultivar registration is equivalent to cultivar
> naming, It is not. A cultivar can be named (i.e.
> the name formally established) in almost any form of publication (bar
> newspapers and a few other things (see 2004 Code)). So if you name a cv in
> a printed nursery catalogue and there is even a one-word description of
> it, and the publication is dated, the name is established provided it
> meets some other technical requirements (which most cultivar epithets do).
> Registration simply means that the ICRA accepts that the cultivar has been
> properly named somewhere and has incorporated it into its Register (which
> can be nothing more elaborate than an excel spreadsheet or even a
> scrap-book!). The Registration process is there to assist the ICRA in
> gathering the information it is responsible for managing.<BR><BR>1. As
> ICRA for Aroids IAS sh/could (I suggest) devote some pages ("ICRA pages")
> at the back of Aroideana to the <U>publication of new cultivar names
> </U>(if this is not happening already -
> sorry, I am out of touch!). Later these pages can also be used to publish
> determinations on the validity of names where issues arise that need a
> decision.<BR><BR>A simple format for publishing a new cv is
> <I><BR></I><BR><B><I>Amorphophallus</I> 'Wilbert's Surprise' </B>
> [PHOTO]<BR><BR><B>Seed parent:</B> <I>A. titanum</I> (un-named clone);
> <B>Pollen parent</B>: <I>A. prainii </I>(un-named
> clone)<BR><BR><B>Hybridiser:</B> George W. Bush; <B>Seedling Parent</B>
> [if different from hybridiser]: Tony Blair<BR><BR>[<B>OR</B>
> <B>Discoverer:</B> John Howard (if the cultivar has in effect been 'found'
> - in the wild, as an accidental seedling, as a sport
> etc]<BR><BR><B>Origin:</B> USA; <B>Introduced:</B> 2006<BR><BR><B>Salient
> features:</B> Spathe xxx, etc etc (keeping this to the minimum necessary
> to capture the distinctive points). <B>Note:</B> <I>this may evolve into
> the bulk of a
> <U>registration form </U>designed around different genera/tribes, but I
> suggest do this when the need arises and when you know exactky why it is
> needed rather than designing elaborate registration forms up
> front.<BR></I><BR><B>Name established:</B> here [or if publishng a
> cultivar whose name is established elsewhere, give the
> reference.]<BR><BR>IMO this covers the key stuff to start with.<BR><BR>If
> this (or something sinmilar) is adopted it may encourage people to publish
> cultuvars in Aroideana rather than in obscure price lists printed off a
> home PC - which is currently permitted under the 2004 Code and is a
> $%^&#@ nuisance!.<BR><BR>2. An online Register is set up to, at first,
> accommodate the new cultivars published in Aroideana with the same
> information and pics, and to which are added all established cultivar
> names in Araceae as they are gathered up by the <U>Registrar</U> and
> anyone assisting over time!<BR><BR>The online registry includes the
> template for publishing new cvs in Aroideana (outlined above), and
> Aroid-L, IAS website and perhaps Dave;s Garden are used to announce the
> deadlines for submission of new cultivars for establishmens in Aroideana
> each year. As the designated ICRA you are, I believe, responsible fior
> providing this service to members and non-members alike.<BR><BR>This seems
> to me to be the minimum necessary to make this work. I have not discussed
> nomenclatural standards and other recomendations of the Code, in the
> belief that f you try to do it all perfectly at once it all just seems too
> much!<BR><BR>Apologes if you have been over all this
> already!!<BR><BR>A<BR><BR> <BR><BR> <BR><BR> <BR><BR> <BR><BR> <BR><BR> <BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR><BR> <BR>
> <DL><BR>
> <DD>From: "Julius Boos" <ju-bo@msn.com></I><BR>
> <DD>Reply-To: Discussion of aroids
> <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com></I><BR>
> <DD>To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com</I><BR>
> <DD>Subject: RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?</I><BR>
> <DD>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 21:33:21 +0000</I><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>>>From : Alistair Hay <ajmhay@hotmail.com><BR>
> <DD>>Reply-To : Discussion of aroids <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com><BR>
> <DD>>Sent : Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:14 AM<BR>
> <DD>>To : aroid-l@gizmoworks.com<BR>
> <DD>>Subject : RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different forms?<BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>>Dear aroid Friends,<BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>>First off, thanks to my friends George Schmid, Wilbert
> Hetterschied <BR>
> <DD>>and Alistair Hay for their most informative comments on
> registering <BR>
> <DD>>cultivars.<BR>
> <DD>>I wrote to the L on behalf of Brian Williams, so hopefully he is
> <BR>
> <DD>>better informed on what registering a cultivar
> involves. I guesss <BR>
> <DD>>the NEXT big hurdle is---where does he register an aroid cultivar,
> <BR>
> <DD>>with whom, and HOW does he go about doing so!! :--)<BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>>Good Growing!<BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>>Julius<BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>>Pared down to the basics, the only salient part of a cultivar that
> <BR>
> <DD>>comes under the ICBN is the genus. The cultivar name at the
> minimum <BR>
> <DD>>consists of the genus name and the cv epithet.<BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>>It does not matter all that much whether the plant is a selected
> <BR>
> <DD>>man-made hybrid or a selection from a wild species or a
> selection <BR>
> <DD>>from a natural hybrid population. The thing that is to be named is
> a <BR>
> <DD>>clone, selected for some merit, within a genus.<BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>>Thus: the gargantuan white-spathed Amorphophallus 'Wilbert's <BR>
> <DD>>Surprise' can be defined, named, established and registered
> <BR>
> <DD>>provided it is distinct from other cultivars of Amorphophallus,
> <BR>
> <DD>>uniform and stable regardless of what species or hybrid it
> is. Of <BR>
> <DD>>course it would be nice to have the information that it is an f2
> <BR>
> <DD>>hybrid of A. titanum and A. prainii, but that it not a necessary
> <BR>
> <DD>>piece of information to name the cv. [I have made this example up,
> <BR>
> <DD>>just in case anyone was wondering!].<BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>>The sort of problem that George raises would, I think, arise in
> <BR>
> <DD>>specific circumstances where there was an intention to transfer a
> <BR>
> <DD>>latin botanical epithet into a cultivar name. This can only be
> done <BR>
> <DD>>where the entire taxon is a clone. A possible example is Aliocasia
> <BR>
> <DD>>zebrina var tigrina: If it can be demonstrated that var. tigrina
> is <BR>
> <DD>>a clone then that botanical varietal epithet can become the
> cultivar <BR>
> <DD>>epithet as in Alocasia 'Tigrina'. If it is not clear whether var.
> <BR>
> <DD>>tigrina is a clone then there are simpler solutions than DNA and
> <BR>
> <DD>>field analysis. Either don't transfer the latin epithet at all, or
> <BR>
> <DD>>translate it into a contemporary language e.g. Alocasia 'Tigrine'
> <BR>
> <DD>>applied to the cultivated clone known now as "tigrina". That way
> the <BR>
> <DD>>exact status of the botanical variety does not need to be found
> out <BR>
> <DD>>at all, while a familiar name (slightly adjusted) can be retained
> as <BR>
> <DD>>a cultivar epithet.<BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>>What I am getting at is that the issues which George raises, while
> <BR>
> <DD>>valid, should not necessarily create the impression of vast
> hurdles <BR>
> <DD>>to getting things going with Aroid cv classifictaion.<BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>>Alistair<BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>> From: "W. George Schmid"
> <hostahill@bellsouth.net><BR>
> <DD>> Reply-To: Discussion of aroids
> <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com><BR>
> <DD>> To: "'Discussion of aroids'"
> <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com><BR>
> <DD>> Subject: RE: [Aroid-l] Names for
> different forms?<BR>
> <DD>> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 11:11:33 -0400<BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> >Julius,<BR>
> <DD>> >Some time ago we had an exchange on
> registering aroid cultivars <BR>
> <DD>>in<BR>
> <DD>> >accordance with the ICNCP (INTERNATIONAL
> CODE OF NOMENCLATURE <BR>
> <DD>>FOR CULTIVATED<BR>
> <DD>> >PLANTS 2004 edition). I made some
> suggestions and Derek worked <BR>
> <DD>>on this also.<BR>
> <DD>> >Perhaps we can refresh our previous
> conversations and efforts. <BR>
> <DD>>The problem I<BR>
> <DD>> >see in Araceae is to determine which aroids
> are valid taxa to <BR>
> <DD>>be handled<BR>
> <DD>> >under the ICBN and which are in fact
> cultivated varieties <BR>
> <DD>>(man-made hybrids)<BR>
> <DD>> >to be registered under the ICNCP. One of
> the problems we had <BR>
> <DD>>under Hosta<BR>
> <DD>> >were the numerous interspecific, natural
> hybrids existing in <BR>
> <DD>>the wild. We<BR>
> <DD>> >solved that problem by field investigations
> and accepted such <BR>
> <DD>>hybrids as<BR>
> <DD>> >taxa if perpetuating populations were found
> to exist in the <BR>
> <DD>>wild. In some<BR>
> <DD>> >cases, the holotypes were based on
> cultivated plants <BR>
> <DD>>purportedly collected<BR>
> <DD>> >in the wild, but lacking field verification
> were reduced to <BR>
> <DD>>cultivars under<BR>
> <DD>> >the ICNCP and so registered. From some of
> the earlier messages <BR>
> <DD>>I deduce that<BR>
> <DD>> >interspecific hybridization may also be a
> problem with aroids. <BR>
> <DD>>To determine<BR>
> <DD>> >synonymy, RAPD/DNA was employed to make the
> differentiations. <BR>
> <DD>>That is an<BR>
> <DD>> >expensive process, though. It seems to me
> that a number of <BR>
> <DD>>aroids in<BR>
> <DD>> >cultivation are not taxa (valid species)
> but culta (cultivars). <BR>
> <DD>>George<BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> >W. George Schmid<BR>
> <DD>> >Hosta Hill R. G.<BR>
> <DD>> >USDA Zone 7a - 1188 feet (361m) AMSL<BR>
> <DD>> >84-12'-30" W 33-51' N<BR>
> <DD>> >All mail virus-scanned by McAfee<BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> >-----Original Message-----<BR>
> <DD>> >From: aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com <BR>
> <DD>>[<A href="a*@gizmoworks.com">
> aroid-l-bounces@gizmoworks.com</A>]<BR>
> <DD>> >On Behalf Of Julius Boos<BR>
> <DD>> >Sent: Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 17:28<BR>
> <DD>> >To: aroid-l@gizmoworks.com<BR>
> <DD>> >Subject: RE: [Aroid-l] Names for different
> forms?<BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> > >From : Brian Williams
> <pugturd@alltel.net><BR>
> <DD>> >Reply-To : Discussion of aroids
> <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com><BR>
> <DD>> >Sent : Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:20 AM<BR>
> <DD>> >To : Discussion of aroids
> <aroid-l@gizmoworks.com><BR>
> <DD>> >Subject : [Aroid-l] Names for different
> forms?<BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> >Dear Brian,<BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> >This all goes back to an issue that to date
> has not been <BR>
> <DD>>'solved' by the<BR>
> <DD>> >aroid group, and which is a VERY difficult
> issue, namely the <BR>
> <DD>>cultivar names<BR>
> <DD>> >and the correct registering of these names
> according to <BR>
> <DD>>whatever<BR>
> <DD>> >horticultural rules/laws that may
> apply.<BR>
> <DD>> >The IAS has nominated several people over
> the past several <BR>
> <DD>>years ( I can<BR>
> <DD>> >recall at least three) to do
> something about setting up some <BR>
> <DD>>sort of<BR>
> <DD>> >registry to legitimize some or all of these
> names which are <BR>
> <DD>>being bantered<BR>
> <DD>> >about, but to date I think the progress on
> instituting this <BR>
> <DD>>system is not in<BR>
> <DD>> >place or even being worked on.<BR>
> <DD>> >I have mentioned on several occasions that
> when man collectes a <BR>
> <DD>>certain<BR>
> <DD>> >plant from nature, he usually selects one
> which to him is the <BR>
> <DD>>most<BR>
> <DD>> >attractive out of several hundred, maybe
> thousands of other <BR>
> <DD>>'less<BR>
> <DD>> >attractive' specimens he may see in the
> field. All of these <BR>
> <DD>>plants, both<BR>
> <DD>> >the 'attractive' ones AND the less
> attractive ones are still <BR>
> <DD>>all variations<BR>
> <DD>> >of ONE species.<BR>
> <DD>> >All I can suggest at this time is that you
> make a label that <BR>
> <DD>>explains what<BR>
> <DD>> >the particular clone or var. of that plant
> is, for example <BR>
> <DD>>Philodendron<BR>
> <DD>> >stenolobum var. narrow/wavy/long leaf,
> and/or P. stenolobum <BR>
> <DD>>var. short and<BR>
> <DD>> >broad leaf, or 'Anthurium warocqueanum var.
> Murline Lydon <BR>
> <DD>>minature', vs.<BR>
> <DD>> >'Anthu. warocqueanum var. large leaf
> '. Collection data and <BR>
> <DD>>collectors<BR>
> <DD>> >name would be another good bit of
> information to keep with all <BR>
> <DD>>wild<BR>
> <DD>> >collected plants.<BR>
> <DD>> >Perhaps Derek Burch can give some sort of
> suggestion or <BR>
> <DD>>soloution that may<BR>
> <DD>> >serve you guys better??<BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> >The Best,<BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> >Julius<BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> > >>I have recently been trying to up
> grade my data base of <BR>
> <DD>>names as well<BR>
> <DD>> > >>as redo all my tags and make sure
> everything has as much <BR>
> <DD>>data and<BR>
> <DD>> > >>information as possible. I have a
> few questions on forms. I <BR>
> <DD>>know many<BR>
> <DD>> > >>plants have several forms of the
> same species. I would like <BR>
> <DD>>to know if<BR>
> <DD>> > >>their are names for these forms or
> even if the science <BR>
> <DD>>community really<BR>
> <DD>> >makes note of it?<BR>
> <DD>> > >>If not would putting a added
> portion to the name to help ID <BR>
> <DD>>different<BR>
> <DD>> > >>forms be possible? If so who
> should come up with these name? <BR>
> <DD>>Here are<BR>
> <DD>> > >>a few for instance off hand that I
> really think should have <BR>
> <DD>>some more<BR>
> <DD>> > >>information. Their seems to
> be two very different forms of <BR>
> <DD>>Veitchii<BR>
> <DD>> > >>one with wider leaves and much
> larger ripples. Then another <BR>
> <DD>>form with<BR>
> <DD>> > >>thinner leaves and a much more
> rippled effect. I know that <BR>
> <DD>>naming all<BR>
> <DD>> > >>slight different forms would not
> be worth while but for some <BR>
> <DD>>very<BR>
> <DD>> > >>noticeable differences it could
> help people know exactly <BR>
> <DD>>what they are<BR>
> <DD>> > >>getting and their seems to be a
> major price difference in <BR>
> <DD>>one form<BR>
> <DD>> > >>compared to the other. Another one
> that comes to mind is the <BR>
> <DD>>two forms<BR>
> <DD>> > >>of Anthurium warocqueanum one that
> can get 3 to 4 feet long <BR>
> <DD>>and the<BR>
> <DD>> > >>smaller slender form with hardly
> any back lobes. They are <BR>
> <DD>>very<BR>
> <DD>> > >>noticeably different yet go by the
> exact same name. If one <BR>
> <DD>>was to<BR>
> <DD>> > >>order the plant under these name
> they could end up with <BR>
> <DD>>either form<BR>
> <DD>> > >>though one form of each is usually
> much more sought after.<<<BR>
> <DD>>
> >_______________________________________________<BR>
> <DD>> >Aroid-l mailing list<BR>
> <DD>> >Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com<BR>
> <DD>> ><A
> href="http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l";>
> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l</A><BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>> ><BR>
> <DD>>
> >_______________________________________________<BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>><BR>
> <DD>>_______________________________________________<BR>
> <DD>>Aroid-l mailing list<BR>
> <DD>>Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com<BR>
> <DD>><A href="http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l";>
> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l</A><BR><BR></DD></DL>_______________________________________________<BR>Aroid-l
> mailing list<BR>Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com<BR><A
> href="http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l";>http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l</A></BLOCKQUOTE>
> <P>Hermine Stover, Secretary<BR>Responsible Dog Owners Of The Western
> States<BR>23280 Stephanie<BR>Perris CA 92570<BR>310 925
> 8407<BR><BR><BR> |\
> _,,,---,,_<BR> /,`.-'`' -.
> ;-;;,_<BR> |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' ''Le Chat qui
> dort<BR> '---''(_/--' `-'\_) </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
> <P>>_______________________________________________<BR>>Aroid-l
> mailing
> list<BR>>Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com<BR>>http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l<BR>
> <P></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></div></html>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aroid-l mailing list
> Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
> http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
>
_______________________________________________
Aroid-l mailing list
Aroid-l@gizmoworks.com
http://www.gizmoworks.com/mailman/listinfo/aroid-l
Other Mailing lists |
Author Index |
Date Index |
Subject Index |
Thread Index
