Re: /schools
- To: g*@hort.net
- Subject: Re: [CHAT] /schools
- From: &* <m*@excite.com>
- Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 22:14:27 -0400 (EDT)
I also really enjoy the fact that as a diverse group of folks we can
have a rational discussion on such issues and still all remain friendly.
Melody, IA (Z 5/4)
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious."
--Albert Einstein
--- On Thu 05/20, Kitty < kmrsy@comcast.net > wrote:
From: Kitty [mailto: kmrsy@comcast.net]
To: gardenchat@hort.net
Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:58:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [CHAT] /schools
David,<br>Re > (I am not a commie...I promise) *sniff*<br>Now, you
know I wasn't calling you a Red Menace or anything like
that!<br>Seriously, though, I believe there are good elements in
communism and<br>socialism, but as a complete way of governing, no.
Capitalism, though, it<br>has a few not-so-good elements does work for
us.<br><br>I like the fact that we can discuss such matters and not get
overheated<br>about it. I agree that public schools need work, just not
on how to achieve<br>it.<br><br>Kitty<br><br>----- Original Message
----- <br>From: "David Franzman"
<dfranzma@pacbell.net><br>To: <gardenchat@hort.net><br>Sent:
Thursday, May 20, 2004 12:42 AM<br>Subject: Re: [CHAT]
/schools<br><br><br>> Cathy, most of the folks on this list are
probably pretty tired of me<br>> already but my take on vouchers is
that you would have all the parents of<br>> the kids who care about
their futures trying to get into a couple of the<br>>
"good" schools leaving the poorest (who can't drive their kids
across<br>town)<br>> and those who don't care going to what is left.
This I think would make<br>the<br>> matter that much worse. Vouchers
to me are a cop out for fixing what has<br>> really become an endemic
problem. If we know there are bad schools then<br>> they should be
fixed not allowed to turn out thousands of kids we know<br>> received
an inferior education. That's something we can't
ignore.<br>However,<br>> schools will never have the same quality of
education until the money that<br>> funds them is evenly spread so
that kids in poor neighborhoods get the<br>same<br>> buck for the
bang. That ain't going to happen for a long time I fear.<br>><br>>
(I am not a commie...I promise) *sniff*<br>> David Franzman<br>> A
Touch of the Tropics<br>> www.atouchofthetropics.net<br>> -----
Original Message ----- <br>> From: "cathy carpenter"
<cathyc@rnet.com><br>> To: <gardenchat@hort.net><br>>
Sent: Wednes
day, May 19, 2004 7:04 PM<br>> Subject: Re: [CHAT]
/schools<br>><br>><br>> > At risk of being strung up, I
think that there is much to be said for<br>> > vouchers. Why
shouldn't parents decide where to send their children?<br>> >
Especially if they are not happy with what is produced by the
public<br>> > education system? Its called putting money where
your mouth is. Why<br>> > should the super wealthy be the only
ones to have that privilege?<br>> > Cathy<br>> > On
Wednesday, May 19, 2004, at 09:54 AM, Kitty wrote:<br>> ><br>>
> > I understand your theory, David. And, I'm sorry if my reply
sounded<br>> > > 'heated'. Not so, just speaking up.<br>>
> ><br>> > > However, if your theory were to be put into
practice - which it can't<br>> > > be -<br>> > >
there'd be less money to go around. I have no idea how many
millions<br>> > > of kids<br>> > > are in private
schools, but if they were all sent to public schools,<br>> > >
the<br>> > > system would collapse. Public schools are using
the funds from taxes<br>> > > that<br>> > > pay for
private kids on the public kids and still can't make
ends<br>meet.<br>> > ><br>> > > Also, one of the great
privleges we as Americans enjoy is choice. I<br>> > >
don't<br>> > > approve of home-schooling, but I do believe
those parents have the<br>> > > right to<br>> > >
choose that route. I also believe that if you want special
schooling<br>> > > for<br>> > > your kids - like the
nutcases who enroll their kids in nursery school<br>> > >
while<br>> > > they are still in the womb - you can make that
choice. To say NO to<br>> > > these<br>> > > choices
and to private school simply because you think it
could<br>improve<br>> > > public schools, goes against the
grain of our society. It's<br>> > >
so
cialistic or<br>> > > maybe even communistic - both systems
with good ideals and properties<br>> > > - that<br>> >
> will not necessarily fix the public school problem. Public
schools<br>> > > must fix<br>> > > themselves, thus
making themselves attractive, by choice, to<br>consumers.<br>> >
><br>> > > Also - the best and the brightest are not
necessarily in private<br>> > > schools. W<br>> > >
went to private schools.<br>> > ><br>> > >
Kitty<br>> > ><br>> > > ----- Original Message
-----<br>> > > From: "David Franzman"
<dfranzma@pacbell.net><br>> > > To:
<gardenchat@hort.net><br>> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 19,
2004 1:14 AM<br>> > > Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT] /schools<br>>
> ><br>> > ><br>> > >> "Too broad a
statement, David."<br>> > >><br>> > >>
Kitty, I don't want to get into a heated debate over what is
simply<br>my<br>> > >> belief however I don't understand why
your personal experience with<br>> > >> parochial schools
makes my statement too broad. My point was that if<br>> > >>
we<br>> > >> were all sent to the same institutions of
learning instead of<br>separate<br>> > >> whether for
personal reasons or wealth the entire society would have<br>> >
>> more<br>> > >> concern for the welfare of public
education which as you must admit<br>> > >> turns<br>>
> >> out far more children than private. Therefore our schools
would be<br>> > >> better<br>> > >> because
there would be far more involvement by those who wield more<br>> >
>> power<br>> > >> within our society.<br>> >
>><br>> > >> Nobody would argue that private
institutions are bad places for<br>> > >> learning.<br>>
> >>
Far from it. In fact, what they do is funnel the best and the<br>>
> >> brightest<br>> > > out<br>> > >> of
the public school system and even worse take the most powerful<br>>
> >> people<br>> > > in<br>> > >> the
country and make public education not their problem.<br>> >
>><br>> > >><br>> > >> David
Franzman<br>> > >> A Touch of the Tropics<br>> >
>> www.atouchofthetropics.net<br>> > >> ----- Original
Message -----<br>> > >> From: "Kitty"
<kmrsy@comcast.net><br>> > >> To:
<gardenchat@hort.net><br>> > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 18,
2004 7:48 PM<br>> > >> Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT]
/schools<br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> >
>>>> I've said this all my adult life: Private schools are
the bane of<br>> > > this<br>> > >>>>
country.<br>> > >>> Too broad a statement, David.<br>>
> >>> Speaking from my experience of 12 years of parochial
school, which<br>is<br>> > >>> private school, but not
quite the private school that Bill Gate's<br>> > >>>
kids<br>> > >> would<br>> > >>>
attend.......<br>> > >>> I was able to receive a good
education with, I believe, less of the<br>> > >>>
interuptions you mentioned in another post. Baby-sitting didn't<br>>
> >>> happen<br>> > > in<br>> > >>>
my classes. Can't behave ? Out you go. My parents paid tuition<br>>
> >>> for 3<br>> > > of<br>> > >>>
us and we weren't well off by any standards. All the parents
that<br>> > >>> pay<br>> > >>> tuition for
parochial schools get no tax break from the govt, and<br>yet<br>>
> > they<br>> > >>> do not make use of funds that
the govt has
as
signed for public<br>> > >>> schools.<br>> >
>> For<br>> > >>> 12 yrs x 3, my folks paid taxes
which went to public schools AND<br>they<br>> > > paid<br>>
> >>> tuition. This allows the public schools extra funds.
It's not our<br>> > > fault<br>> > >>> they
didn't use it wisely. If I had had kids, they too would have<br>>
> >> attended<br>> > >>> parochial
school.<br>> > >>><br>> > >>>
Kitty<br>> > >>><br>> > >>> ----- Original
Message -----<br>> > >>> From: "David Franzman"
<dfranzma@pacbell.net><br>> > >>> To:
<gardenchat@hort.net><br>> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, May
18, 2004 7:11 PM<br>> > >>> Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT]
/schools<br>> > >>><br>> > >>><br>>
> >>>> Melody (I'm sorry folks I realize this is a garden
group and not a<br>> > >> soapbox<br>> >
>>>> for political agendas) I think the problem is in the
reality. The<br>> > >> reality<br>> > >>>>
is that there are far too many students in California who
don't<br>care<br>> > > and<br>> > >>>> whose
parents don't care whether they get an education or not.<br>Fact<br>>
> > is<br>> > >>> that<br>> >
>>>> there is only so much money and resources and the way
we casually<br>> > > spend<br>> > >>>> money
in this country insures a bleak future for education.<br>> >
>>>><br>> > >>>> I've said this all my
adult life: Private schools are the bane of<br>> > >
this<br>> > >>>> country. They guarantee unequal
education. Send Bill Gate's and<br>> > > Warren<br>> >
>>>> Buffet's kids to public schools and we wouldn't be
having t
his<br>> > >> discussion<br>> > >>>> right
now. But as long as we don't we lose untold thousands of<br>> >
>>>> bright<br>> > >>> kids<br>> >
>>>> who don't have the resources to a good education and
hence fall<br>> > > through<br>> > >>>
the<br>> > >>>> cracks.<br>> >
>>>><br>> > >>>> David Franzman<br>>
> >>>> A Touch of the Tropics<br>> >
>>>> www.atouchofthetropics.net<br>> >
>>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>> >
>>>> From: "Melody"
<mhobertm@excite.com><br>> > >>>> To:
<gardenchat@hort.net><br>> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday,
May 18, 2004 2:03 AM<br>> > >>>> Subject: Re: Re:
[CHAT] New oleander/schools<br>> > >>>><br>> >
>>>><br>> > >>>>> DF: This is the
result of a poorly thought out and woefully<br>> > >>
underfunded<br>> > >>>>> "No Child Left Behind
Act", brought to you courtesy of our current<br>> >
>>>>> government officials. In order to continue
qualifying for federal<br>> > >>>>> financial aid
for school districts, each school must meet grade<br>> > >
level<br>> > >>>>> requirements, you know. Well, if
a certain percentage of the<br>> > > children<br>> >
>>>>> can't make it and that prevents the school from
getting funding,<br>> > > then<br>> >
>>>>> what is the logical step? To reduce the level of
difficulty of<br>what<br>> > > is<br>> >
>>>>> being taught to the lowest common denominator, i.e.
dumbing down.<br>> > >>>>> In<br>> >
>>>>> it's purest form, NCLB would be a godsend to the
children of<br>>
&
gt; >>>>> America...teaching them to reach for the
highest standards. In<br>it's<br>> > >>>>> current
bastardized version, it's a nightmare! Political action,<br>> >
>>>>> though...the strength of character to stand up for
what you<br>believe<br>> > >>>>> in...is the only
thing that will change this unfortunate course of<br>> >
>>>>> action our elected officials have embarked upon.
Write or call<br>your<br>> > >>>>> local federal
and state legislators and demand that they fully<br>fund<br>> >
>> the<br>> > >>>>> NCLB act. Okay...off the
soapbox now...sorry, folks!<br>> > >>>>><br>>
> >>>>><br>> > >>>>><br>> >
>>>>> Melody, IA (Z 5/4)<br>> >
>>>>><br>> > >>>>> "The most
beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious."<br>> >
>>>>> --Albert Einstein<br>> >
>>>>><br>> > >>>>> --- On Mon 05/17,
David Franzman < dfranzma@pacbell.net > wrote:<br>> >
>>>>> From: David Franzman [mailto:
dfranzma@pacbell.net]<br>> > >>>>> To:
gardenchat@hort.net<br>> > >>>>> Date: Mon, 17 May
2004 20:41:32 -0700<br>> > >>>>> Subject: Re: Re:
[CHAT] New oleander/schools<br>> > >>>>><br>>
> >>>>> No, no, no Pam! It's "Can I supersize
that for you!" Man, could I<br>> > > tell<br>> >
>>>>> you<br>stories about my kids school. They
watch more movies than<br>> > >>>>> the<br>>
> >>>>> attendants at<br>the Sundance Movie
Festival. What's worse is that<br>> > > not<br>> >
>>>>> only are most of the<br>movies out of context
with the clas
s but<br>> > > many<br>> > >> of<br>> >
>>>>> them are...ugh...cartoons.<br>Now are we
talking about an<br>> > >>>>> elementary<br>>
> >>>>> school? Nope! High school. The<br>coup
d' grace was when my<br>> > >>>>> daughter<br>>
> >>>>> came home from school and she told
me<br>that they watched, in<br>> > > Spanish<br>> >
>>>>> class, a Flintstones cartoon
movie...IN<br>ENGLISH! Oh, it did<br>have<br>> >
>>>>> Spanish subtitles. The schools are dumbing
down<br>our kids and I<br>> > > find<br>> >
>>>>> it repugnant.<br><br>David
Franzman<br>A Touch of the<br>> > >>>>>
Tropics<br>www.atouchofthetropics.net<br>-----
Original<br>> > > Message -----<br>> >
>>>>> <br>From:
<gardenqueen@academicplanet.com><br>To:<br>> >
>>>>> <gardenchat@hort.net><br>Sent: Monday,
May 17, 2004 7:35<br>> > >> PM<br>Subject:<br>>
> >>>>> Re: Re: [CHAT] New
oleander/schools<br><br><br>> Agreed. I've
seen<br>> > >> what<br>> > >>>>> the
local public schools produce here - you want<br>fries w/
that?<br>> > >>>>>
Appalling.<br>><br>> Pam Evans<br>> Kemp,
TX<br>> zone 8A<br>><br>> > >>>>>
-----<br>> > >>>>> Original Message
-----<br>> From: james singer<br>>
Sent:<br>5/17/2004<br>> > >>>>> 4:24:57
PM<br>> To: gardenchat@hort.net<br>> Subject: Re:
[CHAT]<br>> > >>>>> New<br>> >
>>>>> oleander<br>><br>> > Yes, they
are. And I think the Montessori<br>> > >
;&
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