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Re: H. 'Thumb Nail' or 'Suzuki Thumbnail'

  • Subject: Re: H. 'Thumb Nail' or 'Suzuki Thumbnail'
  • From: "Andrew Lietzow" <alietzow@myfamily.com>
  • Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 21:45:18 -0500

Dear George, and interested investigators, 

By George, I think you've got it!  I should have known you would have the answer!!!   The shiny leaves on both SUZTHU and pulchella lead me to believe that this is a dominant gene, that it is transmissable from the pollen parent, and thus the gene which controls shiniest is nuclear.  

Ben shows the picograms of DNA for pulchella (avg) at 21.7.  The average for venusta is 17.3.    If we add together the 1C values for pulchella and venusta, respectively 10.85 and 8.65, the sum is 19.5pg.   If I understand Ben correclty from past communications, the predicted DNA weight for Suzuki Thumbnail should be just a little less than 19.5 (19.5 - the weight of the mtDNA and cpDNA not transferred from the pollen parent).  Now what's left to do is run the test!   SUZTHU should come up about 19.4pg.  

I already have a pretty good idea that pulchella is the unknown pollen parent, from your communication.   Now I want to understand how two genomes combine which could be useful for predictive ancestral analysis.   Ben has tried to explain this before but my brain had not been primed... 

Thank you!    


-----Original Message-----
From: "W. George Schmid" <hostahill@Bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 6:26 PM
To: <hosta-open@hort.net>
Subject: Re: H. 'Thumb Nail'  or 'Suzuki Thumbnail'

Andrew, All,
Rockmaster has H. pulchella in it. I seem to remember something Paul told me
about that, but it's been a long time (23 years). I believe that 'Shining
Tot' comes from the same line. Suzuki Thumbnail is supposedly a H. venusta
selfed. It was purchased by Davidson in Yokohama and registered by Ruh. Aden
did a lot of hybridizing in the late 1970s and early 1980s to get a tiny,
shiny miniature. He came up with 'Shining Tot' and both 'Thumbnail' and ST
got registered in 1982. The secret to all of this may be H. pulchella, which
Paul had back then, I know for a fact. I wrote the species chapter for
Paul's book and I distinctly remember telling him that the photo in the may
in fact not be H. pulchella. So it could be that Paul used an unknown plant
in lieu of H.pulchella (if he used the one in his book) H. pulchella has
small, very shiny leaves and short stems with very few flowers on leaning
stems. The flowers are as large as the leaves. Look at my photo 3-58, page
86. Paul did not change his photo (it was too late). H. okamotoi has nothing
to do with these as it was not in the US at that time. I received it from
Japan in the late 1980s. George

W. George Schmid
Hosta Hill - Tucker Georgia USA
Zone 7a - 1188 feet AMSL
84-12'-30" West_33-51' North
Outgoing e-mail virus checked by NAV
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Lietzow" <alietzow@myfamily.com>
To: "Pat Mora" <giboshidata@comcast.net>; <hostapix@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <hosta-open@hort.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 1:39 PM
Subject: H. 'Thumb Nail' or 'Suzuki Thumbnail'

> Hi Pat,
> RE:>>Per H. 'Thumb Nail' (registered 1982: Aden and H. 'Suzuki Thumbnail'
> registered 1987: Kichigoro Suzuki/Ruh.  Both list parentage as H venusta.
> Yes, I was aware of this from your database, and the good descriptions
George's book.  Thanks for making sure I've done my homework about 'Suzuki
Thumbnail' (ST) prior to posting my question.  :-)
> What I'm curious about is the vigor of this little plant (have you ever
observed how deep into the soil this plant will send roots?  I think it's at
least a foot!) and the glossy surface of its leaves.  Though venusta and
most forms hold up fairly well to slugs, ST is vastly superior.   I want to
determine ploidy just because it is so unique compared to other venusta
forms and I imagine its DNA weight will be different, i.e. indeed hybrid,
but who knows?   From there, I might be able to determine pollen parent
> If indeed hybrid, which would have been it's pollen parent?   Shining Tot?
And, if Shining Tot, then did ST get it's shiny leaves from Rock Master?  If
from Rock Master, then from which for RM?   P. Aden lists no pollen parent
for Rock Master.  Rock Master is not shown at the Hosta Library,  so no PDF
file from Lemke's list; I'm at a dead end for determing from whence cometh
this shiny leaf.
> Schmid only lists 'Rock Master' as a venusta Hybrid, so I imagine Paul was
keeping this a secret.  Of the four + venusta forms Ben has tested, the
group does not include Suzuki Thumbnail.  So, I'm wondering if the pollen
parent might not be Okamotoi or Ruprifraga, both of which have shiny leaves.
This trait should be dominant, since they are species plants.  See where I'm
going with this?  Ploidy analyis helps me get there.  IF I know two values
out of three, I can solve for the third (i.e. determine the probably DNA
weight of ST's pollen parent, then cross reference the list Ben has
developed).  This would allow me to potentially pick the right species,
ruling out others along the way.  I know the ploidy of Okamatoi, Ruprifraga,
longipes var. latifolia 'Maruba', etc. so the equation may be solvable.
> I suppose I could just ask Paul Aden.   Anyone know his phone number or if
he has an email address?   I'm going to look it up in his book right now and
see what he says.  Bummer, he only lists their cultivar names, not
> If you or anyone has an inside track, please let me know.  I LOVE shiny
leaves in small Hosta for a number of reasons.  Some plant out there gave ST
its shiny leaf and P. Aden lists it as a hybrid.  I imagine I'm on the right
track, but am always open to correcting course!
> Ciao,
> Andrew
> _____________________________________________________________________
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