Re: new introductions--Tattoo vs. GE, etc.

Butch say;
lets talk about GE
everyone wants a good one because they look so good
i talked about what i got out of the lab so only 20%
do even reasonably well
find someone who has a good plant and but, barter for
a division
i one out of thousands that is very vigorous and when
i divide it i do get nice plants
--- michael shelton <wilddog_202@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Butch says; to Andrew
> 
> Since I also don't know you from Adam, your right
> that
> I should not have taken such a strong position.
> 
> And let me apologize and I will try to do better.
> 
> One question before I go on, as a "lay geneticist"
> do
> you know if Tele-Evangelist do more than lay people?
> 
> I to dropped off because while not allowing myself
> to
> be a pin cushion and my willingness to take up the
> fight of someone who seemed to be a pin cushion, I
> did
> become weary of the fights and politics.
> 
> The question of a "Good Housekeeping Seal" is only
> valuable inside the AHS. And, I don't really like
the
> concept of what "should be" anywhere. A Seal would
> have very limited influence in the larger market
> (your
> belief that it would only effect 80% is in my
> experience off by 18-19 percent, like 98-99%). Just
> for the sake of explaining my experience, I was the
> leading salesman for Walters Gardens Perennials a
> couple of years and sold wholesale for 17 years
> before
> I started producing Mulch and Soils (bagged and
> bulk)
> Yet, I agree it would be worthwhile if anyone inside
> or outside the AHS would take on such a project.
> Notice I talk out of both sides of my mouth, because
> I
> believe it would be so political as to probably piss
> me off and I would fight with the political factions
> who would bring their self-interest to the rules. I
> found the growers association very ineffective
> because
> there were so many conflicting self-interest which
> lead to limited real consensus. I'm not saying they
> are bad or haven't done anything.
> 
> As to why GE is a problem, out of every 100 GE out
> of
> the test tube 80% had misshapen root systems, and I
> noticed that with others as well. Yet, a plant like
> 'Sun Power' looked like a perfect little seedling.
> GE
> has some problem going through TC which is way
> beyond
> my ability to explain. Finally, I don't think the
> problem is cultural with GE. In this case I'm
> proving
> the negative that so many people would not have that
> many problems if it were cultural.
> 
> I try to use the e-mail for cultural information
> which
> is where most of my knowledge and interest lies.
> 
> Because of my background in marketing of plants I do
> know something about the misconceptions that
> collectors have about the production and marketing
> of
> plant material. This I think leads to a lot of
> wasted
> time about what "should be" and even if we
> collectors
> all agree about what "should be" the collector is
> not
> in control of the wholesale process. And most would
> starve to death in the business of growing and
> selling
> plants yet they somehow feel that they know what
> "should be". The grower tries to get all he can get
> and the buyer tries to buy as cheap as he can. That
> is
> the market place. Which is what Ran is trying to do
> even thought I think he believes he has higher
> ideals.
> Ran, don't defend yourself because I'm not attacking
> you.
> 
> Again, I will try to do better.
> 
> --- Andrew Lietzow <alietzow@myfamily.com> wrote:
> 
> > Dear Butch, 
> > RE:Your comment >>"So, you got one that wasn't
> > perfect, does that justify publishing to a wide
> > audience the problems that you had. Get over your
> > self-righteous self".
> > 
> > My goal here has always been to better understand
> > Hostas, as an ornamental for use in the landscape,
> > and more recentlly, from the inside out from a lay
> > geneticist's point of view, and as an hybridizer. 
> 
> > 
> > During the last four years, spurred on by Jim
> Hawes,
> > Ben Z., George Schmid, Joe Halinar, John Lanier,
> > Bill Meyer and a whole host of others, I've been
> > studying genetics.  At times, I think I might be
> > making some progress.   I try to make sure I don't
> > get too technical yet I know there are several
> here
> > who have a great deal of knowledge about Hosta,
> much
> > more than I.  I like to ask (them) questions.  I
> > also freely share what little knowledge I have
> with
> > those who do likewise.  
> > 
> > Unfortunately, I dropped off of these lists a few
> > years ago, because peole were resorting to name
> > calling and I began to realize this was not a
> > productive use of my time.  Instead of pursuing
> > idle, unproductive chatter while serving as a pin
> > cushion, I buried myself in workshops on lab
> > techniques for DNA sequencing (learning about PCR,
> > AFLP, RFLP, RAPD analysis, and the like.), flow
> > cytometry, and tried to learn a little something
> > about transposons, retro-viruses, and the nematode
> > resistance gene, Hs1pro-1.  I'm not smart yet, but
> > I'm gaining on it.  
> > 
> > The reason I brought up Tattoo was that a few
> folks
> > here were talking about timing for bringing new
> > introductions to the public.  Ran mentioned that
> his
> > standard is to resist the temptation to introduce
> a
> > new plant until it has been tried and proven.   I
> > agree with this NEARLY wholeheartedly (you don't
> > know me, so you don't know that in my garden I
> have
> > a special tribute area to Ran Lydell--I hold him
> and
> > his opinion in very high regard), yet I made the
> > comment that the registration process should not
> be
> > considered to be something like a "Good
> Housekeeping
> > Seal of Approval".  It serves a different purpose.
>  
> > 
> > 
> > New plants need testing, in-situ--i.e. onsite, out
> > in the field.  Because TC Labs are ex-situ
> > environments, they are useful for reasons that you
> > apparently know full well.  Unfortunately, good
> > results in the lab do not always translate to good
> > results in the garden.  New intros, which haven't
> > had extensive in-situ testing, can be sold to a
> > limited audience of collectors and above average
> > gardeners, and IMO, such practice serves the
> > industry well.  We need to know how these things
> > grow in Zones 3-9, and how they grow for the above
> > average gardener before they are rolled out to the
> > average gardener.  
> > 
> > Part of why technically oriented folks like myself
> > go on Hosta tours is to see how well the new and
> > different intros are doing in other's gardens and,
> > when we study the ancestry of the good growers, we
> > gain valuable information for hybridizing.  So,
> when
> > a bad grower hits the mass market, it's not the
> > people who are broken, it's the process.  
> > Fortunately, processes can be fixed! 
> > 
> > Beyond garden tours, where can we talk of such
> > things?  Email lists!  From this list, I was
> seeking
> > productive conversation, like what Narda
> > recommended, to determine how many growers or
> > gardeners are having good luck with Tattoo.  And,
> if
> > you were one of them, I'd love to hear what you're
> > doing to get it to grow!  :-) 
> > 
> > Personally, I have no trouble growing GE but I
> have
> > learned to count myself fortunate.  I have two
> > clumps; one now a monster, after 12 years (Marvin
> > has a photo in his "Excellent Photos" section) and
> > the other is starting to take off from TC plants. 
> > Though some percentage of gardeners DO have
> trouble
> > with this plant, I DO NOT believe this is due to
> > inferior genetics.  It's a microclimate issue and
> > I'm quite certain that you would find this to be
> > true in nearly ALL instances where GE does not
> > perform well.  
> > 
> > When people see my GE, some ask, "How did you get
> it
> 
=== message truncated ===
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