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Re: RE: One in 10,000


I appreciate your sending me the reprint.  Access to an academic library is
difficult as the closest one with plant journals is in Athens, Georgia
(Univ. of Georgia).  If you have other articles that touch on this subject,
I would be most pleased to have them.

I realize that the idea of jumping genes in Hosta is not original, how could
it be.  It is too obvious as an explanation.  But remember that this is just
mind game, none of us is doing research (possible exception of Joe) on this
subject.  The discussions can not go too far because none of us know the
genetic literature well enough to give definitive answers.  One might hope
that there is someone who can do this for us though.

No one is actually ignoring you.  I sent you a bait, which you ignored, with
the challenge about how do you sort out chloroplasts in the zygote.  I can
see the rest of the chlorplast theory but not this  --  enlighten me.  As
the zygote divides and becomes muticellular there would have to be a
mechanism to make white chloroplasts go in one cell and green ones in
another (eventual progenitors of L1 and L2).  Remember these chloroplasts
originally came from the maternal tissue (has to be streaked, remember), but
are all mixed up in the zygote (a single cell).  The chloroplasts all came
from a singel cell, the egg cell (there would be no opportunity to get
chloroplasts from both the white and green areas of the streak).

Alternatively, the chloroplasts changed during development (mutated?) but
this seems to require very unstable chloroplast genomes.  And why do you
need a streaked maternal parent to get variegated seedlings?  If the
chloroplasts change during development, than any Hosta should work.
Chloroplasts in streaked plants have the ability to change, while those in
plain variegated plants do not?

Jim Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Hawes <hawesj@gcnet.net>
To: hosta-open@mallorn.com <hosta-open@mallorn.com>; hawesj@gcnet.net
Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: RE: One in 10,000

>Jim Anderson and other open Robins,
>This post is in response to yours of late Sunday night. You wrote:
><Think you missed my point.> then you went on to tell me where I missed
>your point.
>Au contraire, mon ami. I am keeping up and even reading in between the
>lines when necessary. I observed what you wanted to emphasize and what
>you wanted to avoid discussing. I understood well that you were:
>1. talking about nuclear mutations controlling color in hosta sports,
>based upon your tc and academic experiences (This is perfectly  fine
>with me).
>2 that you were not interested in discussing any other parts of Ben's
>theories, i.e..
>   -tissue transfers
>   -crossover
>   -other rare possible causes
>(this, too, is fine with me for the moment)
>3.that you did not want to discuss plastid mutations, sorting out of
>mutated /non-mutated plastid mixtures in cells and the role of this
>phenomenon according to Vaughn's observations in cytoplasmic inheritance
>as dscussed in Bulletin 11.( I thought this item should have been on the
>agenda for discussion and I was surprized that it is dismissed without
>4. that you wanted to discuss transposons as a possible explanation for
>possible high rates of mutations ( In March 1999, I sent Joe the
>Marcotrigiano article which described on page 778 how transposable
>genetic elements can occasionally be transposed on one position on a
>chromosome to another position, thereby being able to generate chimeras.
>I also informed him of the initiative taken by Dr.Lois Girton about two
>years ago to try to gather data to support the idea she had to explain
>mosaic variegation by the presence of "jumping genes" in hostas...so
>this concept is not a new one conceived this weekend).
>5.that you wanted to get Ben to discuss this subject since he is still
>involved in academia( This is fine with me also, provided he would
>answer questions, cite sources of his infomation and use good scientific
>proceedures....and that accepted classical research findings are
>included on an equal time and space basis in the discussion).
>6. that you did not want to consider the inputs I had made  in my posts
>regarding classical research. which I continue to mention over and over
>as important.
>7. that it was obvious that you and Joe had collaborated in your agenda
>for discussion. (I have no trouble with this either, except that it was
>obvious that you were in the process of establishing a "new boys school"
>and that I was being slightly slighted because I was of the "old" boys
>school...not many of us left. I WILL BE HEARD because I have much
>invested in the study of  this subject matter).
>In my opinion, I don't think I missed any points you hoped to cover.
>MIND. I hope you find this analysis as amusing as I do.
>Now to get down to things I want to say. I saw all of the above
>happening and I have read all discussions with keen interest. I think
>most of the posts are very positive and are generating much interest and
>knowledge on variegation in hostas. This exchange of views is GREAT in
>my opinion, even when we may be going down the garden path too fast, too
>deeply and taking a wrong turn occasionally because we forgot our road
>map. The road map I refer to  is all of the written material already
>recorded on this subject. The views of Marcotrigiano, Vaughn, Dermen,
>Tiney-Bassett and others should not be overlooked or dismissed out of
>hand. My interpretations  on this subject which have been five years in
>the making , are also apparently being ignored. I do not claim to have
>read all of the literature either, but I have read much of what relates
>to the matters at hand.
>My motives are to be helpful. Therefore, I plan to  forward you a xerox
>copy of Marcotrigiano's article from HortScience, Vol 32(5) entitled
>'Chimeras and Variegation: Patterns of Deceit". It covers the
>warefront   in describing what I have been trying to get someone to
>provide...a summary of the conventional wisdom concerning variegation.
>Joe thought it was VERY interesting and it gave him some new insights
>and ideas on this subject (so he told me last March 21, 1999 in an
>e-mail post).
>So I have had my brief moment in the sun. Now back to the reading mode
>to see if what I wrote has any impact. on the thinking within the group.
>Probably Not!!!!
>Jim Hawes
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