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Re: Presumptions about your mother

I can't get involved in the patriot/minuteman discussion, but part of your message
seems to address the sport/mutation question.  Somebody correct me if this is too
simple minded. but it seems to me that a sport is a plant which appears as a
division of an existing plant and a mutation would be a change in the genetic
makeup of a plant grown from seed.  Or are they mutually interchangeable?


Marekmohr@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/24/99 7:21:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> zonneveld@rulbim.leidenuniv.nl writes:
> <<  Could you elaborate on this statement?
>  pps:  when they first started selling patriot....some of them could have been
>  minuteman....so if your patriot sports....are you sure it is a sport of
>  patriot....or is it a sport on minuteman.....
>  >>
> first and formost...this is from a laymens perspective, not a genetics
> background......i still have a hard time wrapping my mind around
> sports/mutations...and all that stuff...
> "I thought"...and that is a big caveat.....that minuteman was a selection from
> patriot.....as wade says "it's an improved patriot"....both are listed as
> mutations of francee....
> now, if patriot was first removed from francee....that is to say it is a
> mutation of francee...then it is grown on....and a "selection" is made from
> patriot....as was minuteman....is minuteman a sport of francee???   or is
> minuteman a sport of patriot.....i smell a genetics issue hear....
> now we know that both are in tissue culture....and that we rely on abilitites
> of the lab to ferret out what plant they are producing....they are very good
> at this....but mistakes do occur.....can one say that when dealing with tiny
> ex-plants that it is readily apparent which plant is being produced.....grow
> them on for a few months...study them...sort them....and hopefully the buyer
> recieves the correct plant.....but maybe they dont....
> now ben, i used this as an example.....assuming i have patriot, and you have
> patriot.....assuming the sources were different....assuming we both get a
> green sport/mutation [dont get tangled up if i use the wrong term]...can you
> and i safely assume that we have the same sport/mutation......even if we can
> NOT prove that the mother plnats are identical.....
> falstad pointed this out a while back....a few weeks ago....he said something
> along the lines that you could assume certain sports/mutations are the same,
> now....back to mikes question.....he used Elegans as an example...i wanted to
> point out that his elegans, may not be the same as my elegans...and neither
> may be the same as your elegans.....so my point was that similair looking
> sports from our 3 plants, are NOT necessarily the same.....and therefore the
> rules of the registrar should be followed....different names for independent
> plants, UNTIL IT CAN BE PROVEN THEY ARE THE SAME.....and i guess i am
> suggesting that to prove they are the same, you have to prove that the mother
> plants were the same.....
> i wanted to go a step further....give another example of how we can not be
> sure that the mother plant is not the same...hence the example of
> patriot/minuteman......I THOUGHT I HEARD SOMEONE ONCE SAY that some
> percentage, and it was a ridiculous percentage, of patriots were labeled as
> minutemans, and vice versa......if my recollection is wrong...then my original
> "mother" statement was wrong...and this is all nonsense....maybe this was a
> warren pollack discussion in one of the historical hosta journals.....sorry i
> cant be more specific....
> does any of this make sense, or am i way out of line here????
> ken
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