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Re: Natural Clay raised beds and quackgrass

Square Foot Gardening List - http://www.flinet.com/~gallus/sqft.html

Well, Bill, I hope you feel lucky, and are.

Roundup was touted as a supersafe herbicide when it was first introduced
(same as DDT, just for the record), but some scientists have always had
their doubts....

I had occasion to look at some of the literature on the subject a couple of
years ago, and what I saw did not reassure me that Roundup was as harmless
as some people seem to think.

There is an article reviewing the product in the Journal of Pesticide Reform
which would start you on your way through the literature, and Dr Warren
Porter of the University of Wisconcin at Madison has also been gathering
information regarding the effects of Roundup on animals (he's a zoologist).

Basically I think that chemicals in the garden are a Faustian bargain, and
some of the latest studies on childhood cancer suggest that those of us who
use them are increasing our children's risks by substantial amounts.

I would draw your attention to the September 1999 issue of Epidemiology, Vol
10 No 5, p. 481, "Risk of Childhood Leukemia Associated with Exposure to
Pesticides and with Gene Polymorphisms" by Claire Infante-Rivard et al.

In the main body of the article the following paragraph stands out:

"Among the long-term effects of pesticides,  carcinogenic potential is of
greatest concern. Although evidence is often inadequate or  lacking to
determine carcinogenicity from human studies,  there is enough information
from animal studies and in vitro tests for concern. A recent review of
epidemiological studies on pesticides and childhood cancer underscored that
there are only a few studies that had the specific objective of studying the
relation between pesticide exposure in and around the home and the incidence
of childhood acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL). This review as well as
another recent one show that most studies reported increased risks from
maternal and child exposures."

I do not believe that we have a full understanding of the downstream effects
of pesticides generally nor Roundup and its other glyphosate siblings
particularly, and I do see enough data in the literature to cause me not to
use it or other neo-chemical products to the extent I reasonably can avoid
them.

I understand your desire to gain more time using toxic chemistry....but
perhaps if you got the whole family involved in a quackgrass digout, you
might find it was good family time, without the attendant risks of
neo-chemical fallout to deal with.

Respectfully,

Frank Teuton

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Missen <billmissen@sprint.ca>
To: Square Foot Gardening List <sqft@listbot.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: Natural Clay raised beds and quackgrass


>Square Foot Gardening List - http://www.flinet.com/~gallus/sqft.html
>
>Frank-  I realize this may be somewhat contentious solution for some... I
>roundup whatever weeds are troublesome. I find roundup to be a fast easy
>solution to pesky recurring weed problems. (I have heard the discussions
>about the roundup product and I am not convinced roundup is a problem in my
>yard/garden.)
>
>I simply do not have time/will not allocate precious family time to tasks
>that can easily be eliminated by a quick application. With simple care to
>follow the directions issued for this product would this not ease your
>efforts?
>
>Trying to balance life's demands,
>bill missen.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Frank Teuton" <fteuton@total.net>
>To: "Square Foot Gardening List" <sqft@listbot.com>
>Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 5:25 AM
>Subject: Re: Natural Clay raised beds and quackgrass
>
>
>> Square Foot Gardening List - http://www.flinet.com/~gallus/sqft.html
>>
>> Slightly raised beds can be made from soil only with no artificial
border.
>> Details for various shapes are given in an old Rodale book, High Yield
>> Gardening, which like many Rodale books offers a cafeteria of different
>> ideas from different intensive growing systems, including Sq Ft.
>>
>> I have both kinds of beds (or rather, several kinds of beds) in my garden
>> area, and plants are willing to grow in all of them.
>>
>> Quackgrass is a tough nut and you should not attempt to rototill to try
to
>> get rid of it, unless you are willing to take on a year long task of
>> rototilling and planting buckwheat three or more times, followed by
winter
>> rye in the fall, and tillage of that the following spring.
>>
>> Other wise rototilling quackgrass will just give you lots of little teeny
>> quackgrass plants, and they will all grow again.
>>
>> The best way to remove quack is by double digging, which is a major
>> investment of labor. It can also be controlled by single digging (a fork
>or
>> a Garden Claw is a good tool for this) and thoroughly chasing down every
>> root you can find, and then following that up with rigorous weeding and
>> again getting all the roots whenever you see a shoot.
>>
>> Mulching with boilerplate might work, but it will penetrate lesser
>materials
>> <grin>.
>>
>> On the up side, quackgrass leaves dried and powdered can be a useful slug
>> killer and repellent, dusted around susceptible plants.
>>
>> Anyway, good luck with stand alone raised beds, they work fine....and
good
>> courage in the battle with quackgrass!
>>
>> Frank Teuton
>>
>>
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Teri Epp" <kitty@cwnet.com>
>> >To: "Square Foot Gardening List" <sqft@listbot.com>
>> >Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 9:04 AM
>> >Subject: Re: Natural Clay raised beds and quackgrass
>> >
>> >
>> >> Square Foot Gardening List - http://www.flinet.com/~gallus/sqft.html
>> >>
>> >> Charlie- I have areas that have this clay too and you can actucally
>mold
>> >it
>> >> and make things with it! Luclily it is about 1foot down and is covered
>by
>> >> hard pan(!) when has been removed mostly and amended with all of the
>ggod
>> >> stuff. I don't see why this would work- the water just seems to sit
>there
>> >> doesn't go down for days- have tried adding gypsum and everything I
>could
>> >> think of to make it into real soil- to no avail- so just make mostly
>> >sunken
>> >> or rasied bedsand hope nothing  needs to go deeper than about 2 feet.I
>> >read
>> >> where if you add sand it becomes like concrete- . Hmm- Clay- plus sand
>in
>> >> raised beds=permanent(almost) borders??Anyone tried this? The only
>thing
>> I
>> >> can think of(not that I know that much about gardening) is that the
>> darned
>> >> quackgrass is rooted there and is there to stay.Istay it seems- Too
bad
>> we
>> >> can't eat that stuff.It just pushes up thru my newspaper and leaves
and
>> >> straw like it was nothing- Suggestions on how to manage it? More
>compost
>> >> just seems to encourage it!-Teri
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: ...Charlie... <csimpson@preferred.com>
>> >> To: Sqft <sqft@listbot.com>
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 6:17 PM
>> >> Subject: Natural raised beds
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Square Foot Gardening List - http://www.flinet.com/~gallus/sqft.html
>> >> >
>> >> > I am trying the following method to provide "sides" and "ends" to my
>> >> raised
>> >> > beds. I have rototilled several 3' wide by varying length beds to a
>> >depth
>> >> of
>> >> > 12 or so inches. I then "pulled" with a hoe, the soil, into "banks"
>> >about
>> >> 6"
>> >> > high, to form the borders, next I filled these depressions with
>compost
>> >> > thereby creating "natural" raised beds. Since my soil is red clay I
>> >expect
>> >> > the borders to harden rather like adobe. Will let you all know how
>this
>> >> > works out.
>> >> >
>> >> > Charlie
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