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Re: Natural Clay raised beds and quackgrass

Square Foot Gardening List - http://www.flinet.com/~gallus/sqft.html

Ihave to adnit that I am also using roundup in the flower garden- not in the
eatable section-
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Teuton <fteuton@total.net>
To: Square Foot Gardening List <sqft@listbot.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: Natural Clay raised beds and quackgrass


> Square Foot Gardening List - http://www.flinet.com/~gallus/sqft.html
>
> Well, Bill, I hope you feel lucky, and are.
>
> Roundup was touted as a supersafe herbicide when it was first introduced
> (same as DDT, just for the record), but some scientists have always had
> their doubts....
>
> I had occasion to look at some of the literature on the subject a couple
of
> years ago, and what I saw did not reassure me that Roundup was as harmless
> as some people seem to think.
>
> There is an article reviewing the product in the Journal of Pesticide
Reform
> which would start you on your way through the literature, and Dr Warren
> Porter of the University of Wisconcin at Madison has also been gathering
> information regarding the effects of Roundup on animals (he's a
zoologist).
>
> Basically I think that chemicals in the garden are a Faustian bargain, and
> some of the latest studies on childhood cancer suggest that those of us
who
> use them are increasing our children's risks by substantial amounts.
>
> I would draw your attention to the September 1999 issue of Epidemiology,
Vol
> 10 No 5, p. 481, "Risk of Childhood Leukemia Associated with Exposure to
> Pesticides and with Gene Polymorphisms" by Claire Infante-Rivard et al.
>
> In the main body of the article the following paragraph stands out:
>
> "Among the long-term effects of pesticides,  carcinogenic potential is of
> greatest concern. Although evidence is often inadequate or  lacking to
> determine carcinogenicity from human studies,  there is enough information
> from animal studies and in vitro tests for concern. A recent review of
> epidemiological studies on pesticides and childhood cancer underscored
that
> there are only a few studies that had the specific objective of studying
the
> relation between pesticide exposure in and around the home and the
incidence
> of childhood acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL). This review as well as
> another recent one show that most studies reported increased risks from
> maternal and child exposures."
>
> I do not believe that we have a full understanding of the downstream
effects
> of pesticides generally nor Roundup and its other glyphosate siblings
> particularly, and I do see enough data in the literature to cause me not
to
> use it or other neo-chemical products to the extent I reasonably can avoid
> them.
>
> I understand your desire to gain more time using toxic chemistry....but
> perhaps if you got the whole family involved in a quackgrass digout, you
> might find it was good family time, without the attendant risks of
> neo-chemical fallout to deal with.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Frank Teuton
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Missen <billmissen@sprint.ca>
> To: Square Foot Gardening List <sqft@listbot.com>
> Date: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 11:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Natural Clay raised beds and quackgrass
>
>
> >Square Foot Gardening List - http://www.flinet.com/~gallus/sqft.html
> >
> >Frank-  I realize this may be somewhat contentious solution for some... I
> >roundup whatever weeds are troublesome. I find roundup to be a fast easy
> >solution to pesky recurring weed problems. (I have heard the discussions
> >about the roundup product and I am not convinced roundup is a problem in
my
> >yard/garden.)
> >
> >I simply do not have time/will not allocate precious family time to tasks
> >that can easily be eliminated by a quick application. With simple care to
> >follow the directions issued for this product would this not ease your
> >efforts?
> >
> >Trying to balance life's demands,
> >bill missen.
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Frank Teuton" <fteuton@total.net>
> >To: "Square Foot Gardening List" <sqft@listbot.com>
> >Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 5:25 AM
> >Subject: Re: Natural Clay raised beds and quackgrass
> >
> >
> >> Square Foot Gardening List - http://www.flinet.com/~gallus/sqft.html
> >>
> >> Slightly raised beds can be made from soil only with no artificial
> border.
> >> Details for various shapes are given in an old Rodale book, High Yield
> >> Gardening, which like many Rodale books offers a cafeteria of different
> >> ideas from different intensive growing systems, including Sq Ft.
> >>
> >> I have both kinds of beds (or rather, several kinds of beds) in my
garden
> >> area, and plants are willing to grow in all of them.
> >>
> >> Quackgrass is a tough nut and you should not attempt to rototill to try
> to
> >> get rid of it, unless you are willing to take on a year long task of
> >> rototilling and planting buckwheat three or more times, followed by
> winter
> >> rye in the fall, and tillage of that the following spring.
> >>
> >> Other wise rototilling quackgrass will just give you lots of little
teeny
> >> quackgrass plants, and they will all grow again.
> >>
> >> The best way to remove quack is by double digging, which is a major
> >> investment of labor. It can also be controlled by single digging (a
fork
> >or
> >> a Garden Claw is a good tool for this) and thoroughly chasing down
every
> >> root you can find, and then following that up with rigorous weeding and
> >> again getting all the roots whenever you see a shoot.
> >>
> >> Mulching with boilerplate might work, but it will penetrate lesser
> >materials
> >> <grin>.
> >>
> >> On the up side, quackgrass leaves dried and powdered can be a useful
slug
> >> killer and repellent, dusted around susceptible plants.
> >>
> >> Anyway, good luck with stand alone raised beds, they work fine....and
> good
> >> courage in the battle with quackgrass!
> >>
> >> Frank Teuton
> >>
> >>
> >> >----- Original Message -----
> >> >From: "Teri Epp" <kitty@cwnet.com>
> >> >To: "Square Foot Gardening List" <sqft@listbot.com>
> >> >Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 9:04 AM
> >> >Subject: Re: Natural Clay raised beds and quackgrass
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Square Foot Gardening List - http://www.flinet.com/~gallus/sqft.html
> >> >>
> >> >> Charlie- I have areas that have this clay too and you can actucally
> >mold
> >> >it
> >> >> and make things with it! Luclily it is about 1foot down and is
covered
> >by
> >> >> hard pan(!) when has been removed mostly and amended with all of the
> >ggod
> >> >> stuff. I don't see why this would work- the water just seems to sit
> >there
> >> >> doesn't go down for days- have tried adding gypsum and everything I
> >could
> >> >> think of to make it into real soil- to no avail- so just make mostly
> >> >sunken
> >> >> or rasied bedsand hope nothing  needs to go deeper than about 2
feet.I
> >> >read
> >> >> where if you add sand it becomes like concrete- . Hmm- Clay- plus
sand
> >in
> >> >> raised beds=permanent(almost) borders??Anyone tried this? The only
> >thing
> >> I
> >> >> can think of(not that I know that much about gardening) is that the
> >> darned
> >> >> quackgrass is rooted there and is there to stay.Istay it seems- Too
> bad
> >> we
> >> >> can't eat that stuff.It just pushes up thru my newspaper and leaves
> and
> >> >> straw like it was nothing- Suggestions on how to manage it? More
> >compost
> >> >> just seems to encourage it!-Teri
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: ...Charlie... <csimpson@preferred.com>
> >> >> To: Sqft <sqft@listbot.com>
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 6:17 PM
> >> >> Subject: Natural raised beds
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Square Foot Gardening List -
http://www.flinet.com/~gallus/sqft.html
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I am trying the following method to provide "sides" and "ends" to
my
> >> >> raised
> >> >> > beds. I have rototilled several 3' wide by varying length beds to
a
> >> >depth
> >> >> of
> >> >> > 12 or so inches. I then "pulled" with a hoe, the soil, into
"banks"
> >> >about
> >> >> 6"
> >> >> > high, to form the borders, next I filled these depressions with
> >compost
> >> >> > thereby creating "natural" raised beds. Since my soil is red clay
I
> >> >expect
> >> >> > the borders to harden rather like adobe. Will let you all know how
> >this
> >> >> > works out.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Charlie
> >> _____________________________________________________________________
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> >> >>
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> >> >>
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