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Re: Re: PHOTO:TB Brazen Beauty/& close up

  • Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: PHOTO:TB Brazen Beauty/& close up
  • From: "Margie Valenzuela" <IrisLady@comcast.net>
  • Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 12:54:04 -0700

Neil, thank you so much for your time, explanations, and insights.  It's parents are both plicatas, and that cross in itself (if I understand it correctly) could result in a luminata, or even a luminata plicata. So that is why I thought it could be such.
But, yes - - now that you mention it - - those lines look more of a delicate pink, or pinky-ivory than a pure white. And you say that isn't typical of the Lycopene distribution? That almost makes it more interesting.
What does TWOI stand for?  I'm familiar with the AIS bulletin, and the Tall Bearded iris Society publications, and the World of Iris book. This other just doesn't ring a bell for me right now.
Margie V.
Oro Valley, AZ.
Zone 8/9
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 12:19 PM
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: PHOTO:TB Brazen Beauty

Margie, I really don't have a great deal of experience with plicatas, but from what I've seen, provided the iris is some kind of plicata, even a single one of the pl loci being the pl(luminata) variation should be highly visible as a light colored but definite shading between the veins on both standards and falls, but not occurring in the haft of the fall and base of the standards.
There was a time when irises like that circulated on the market.  Strong plicata, weak luminata--or in some cases, quite strong luminata, strong plicata as well.  I can't subscript or superscript (as far as I know) with this window, so can't give the correct symbols, but perhaps this would be clear enough--
Strong plicata, weak luminata in combination---pl pl pl pl-lum.
Both plicata and luminata equally expressed with some strength--pl pl pl-lu pl-lu
Both can be watered down by one or two of the loci occupied by the allele for glaciata--pl pl-lu pl-a pl-a for example, giving a pale plicata-luminata, I would think.
Another matter that affects how vivid or dark the plicata is lies in the locus for the anthocyanin color(s)--it is becoming quite clear there are different anthocyanins floating around in our modern gene pool.  The anthocyanins show dosage effects, so they can be rich, medium, pale or absent.  How many of the variant anthocyanins can be manipulated by the plicata set of genes I don't know.
As I understand it, "plicata" genetics can only work with the anthocyanins already present, however weakly or strongly made.
The other thing to remember is that when a whole series of different forms of a gene--alleles--exist, only four normally get included in any one iris, one for each of the chromosomes that are fundamentally alike.  Pl is non-plicata, pl is normal plicata, as is illustrated in your photo, pl-lu (however that is symbolized) makes for luminata, pl-a makes an ice white or yellow or pink--a glaciata.  If any one of the four positions--loci--is occupied by the dominant "normal" variant (allele) the flower is a self, relative to the plicata pattern.
What shows in your photo looks to me at first glance a "normal" plicata--and a beauty at that.
Now, Keith Keppel is the expert among the living about these matters and he might answer your question quite differently.  He has experience of several decades, a very sharp mind and many tens of thousands of plicata-line seedlings behind his opinions.  His article in TWOI (pp. 99-107) is a gold mine.  Written updated, (which I hope does happen) it will be a mine producing far more value than mere gold. 
A discussion of plicata genetics can be found in Kenneth Kidd's article beginning on p.399.  That also may help--or further confuse.  Have fun!
Neil Mogensen  z 7 western NC mountains

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