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Re: Re: HIST: TB: Pink Opal- use of species designation

  • Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: HIST: TB: Pink Opal- use of species designation
  • From: Robt R Pries rpries@sbcglobal.net
  • Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 08:12:32 -0800 (PST)

I believe I agree with Walter if something is a
pallida even if it was crossed with pallidas for ten
generations in the garden it is still a pallida. 5000
generations is something else again. At some point a
new taxonomic name is given to garden creations
especially if they have hybridized with other species.
But as a case in point, All japanese Iris are the
species iris ensata. Even though they may have been
selected in gardens for 200 years they are still Iris
ensata. wild populations do look very different than
the cultivated plants. One misunderstanding is that
wild populations often have individuals that look very
different also from the general population. It is just
that we collect these rare variants. Today man has sad
to say impacted even the wildest of habitats. Many of
us no longer view nature as being outside of gardens.
But the whole world now is a garden whether we are
really taking responsibility for that fact or not.
wildness is now a spectrum from totally man selected
to partly man influenced. Of course I would like to
see certain cultivars distinguished as "wild
collected" but there are fewer and fewer populations
that many of us would call wild. And just becuase
something has been grown in a garden and given a
cultivar name does not automatically mean it is less

--- Walter Pickett <waltseed2@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm Ok with calling long haired dashunds wolves, but
> we need to be aware they are not typical wolves. 
> They have been bred seperately about 2,000
> generations.  But even so, their DNA is indeed
> little changed.
>   Pink Opal is not a typical I. pallida, but close
> to average I. pallida.  A few color modifiers, and
> few shpe modifiers, but the DNA is still basicly I.
> pallida.  Of course, there may have been an outcross
> a few generations back,  we con't know.  Same with
> iris found in the wild.
>   There is no hard and fast way to designate when
> something stops being a given species, short of a
> known outcross.  Selection and mutation soes
> eventually make a species divide.  But there
> generally isn't a given generation where a
> taxonomist can point to and say "That is when the
> species seperated."  Exceptions include a polyploiy
> event, a chromosome inversion or transolation and
> such.  But such can only be pointed to in the light
> of later history.  Even then, most of the time we
> still can't see such a point.
>   Walter
> irischapman@netscape.net wrote:
>   While this may have all and only pallida in its
> ancesry I have problems 
> calling it a pallida.  It was hyridized in the
> garden, not collected in 
> wild and I beilive , several generations from the
> wild.  As soon as 
> plants are selected for certain characteristics we
> soon see things that 
> are different then nature.
> If we used this sort of deignation then we should be
> calling  long 
> haired dashunds and  indeed all breeds of dogs ,
> wolves, as their 
> genetics is 100% from wolves. And to study wolf
> behavior /genetics we 
> should use these domestic "Wolves"in our studies, no
> need to send 
> biologists into the wild, save a lot of money on
> resesrch that way.
> Chuck Chapman
> ---------------------------------
>  Yahoo! Personals
>  Let fate take it's course directly to your email.
>  See who's waiting for you Yahoo! Personals

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