iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
- Subject: Re: HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
- From: B* W* <A*@aol.com>
- Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 14:53:55 -0500 (EST)
<<Anyone get higher then 50% reblooming seedlings in a cross?>>
In cross 1511, I planted 14 seed, 7 sprouted and were planted, with 5 providing some rebloom. I don't consider this enough to be conclusive. 1510 was a half sibling and also produced 5 rebloomers. However, in this case, I planted over 50 seedlings. Had 1511 produced 50 seedlings, I still might have only had 5 that rebloomed. My rebloomers are usually among the strongest of a given cross. (Not always.)
We're on the photo site.
Donald, do you post on iris talk yet?
Betty W.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris-photos <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:38 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Wilkerson <A*@aol.com>
To: i*@yahoogroups.com; i*@hort.net
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:28 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris-photos <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:38 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
Rcessive -dominant traits can be tricky to get a good handle on. Basically you have dominant genes and absence of dominant genes. The absence of the dominant genes leads to what is referred to as recessive state.
The recessive state is often a collection of the same defective gene. And to make matters more confusing, most dominant genes are only partially dominant, to differerent degrees.
You need only one dominant gene, out of four in a tetraploid, to do its job. So one anthocyanin producing gene can give you a purple (on yellow ground) or a blue in absence of yellow. So crossing two purples that have only one gene to produce anthocyanin, will give you 1/4 of offspring without anthrocyanin. So yellow from cross of two purples , or from cross of purple X blue. Or white from a cross of two blues.
In process of producing cartenoid pigment, the lycopene preceeds beta-carotene in the chain of chemical conversions. It takes only one of the beta-carotene genes to convert the lycopene to beta-carotene. The absence of any beta-carotene producing gene will result in a lycopene pink flower (simplified, ignoting tjhe other genes involved)
So if an effect depends on two dominant genes, then crossing two plants having this trait, each with one copy of the the two dominant genes, only 1/4 of the offspring will have a copy of both of the dominant genes. And thus have the trait.
With my "Whenever Rebloomers" I know there is a recessive trait occuring as no rebloomers when crossed to non rebloomers and when crossed to summer rebloomers. Yet if it was entirely a recessive gene trait, then Whenever X Whenever, should produce 100% rebloomers, I'm currently getting about 25%. Thus a multiple factor effect, and some of the genes need to be dominant.
Could very well be same thing with Summer rebloomers. As if a simple recessive, then summer rebloomers X summer rebloomers would equal 100% rebloomers.
My cross producing 50% rebloomers is the highest percentage I've encountered.
Anyone get higher then 50% reblooming seedlings in a cross?
Chuck Chapman
The recessive state is often a collection of the same defective gene. And to make matters more confusing, most dominant genes are only partially dominant, to differerent degrees.
You need only one dominant gene, out of four in a tetraploid, to do its job. So one anthocyanin producing gene can give you a purple (on yellow ground) or a blue in absence of yellow. So crossing two purples that have only one gene to produce anthocyanin, will give you 1/4 of offspring without anthrocyanin. So yellow from cross of two purples , or from cross of purple X blue. Or white from a cross of two blues.
In process of producing cartenoid pigment, the lycopene preceeds beta-carotene in the chain of chemical conversions. It takes only one of the beta-carotene genes to convert the lycopene to beta-carotene. The absence of any beta-carotene producing gene will result in a lycopene pink flower (simplified, ignoting tjhe other genes involved)
So if an effect depends on two dominant genes, then crossing two plants having this trait, each with one copy of the the two dominant genes, only 1/4 of the offspring will have a copy of both of the dominant genes. And thus have the trait.
With my "Whenever Rebloomers" I know there is a recessive trait occuring as no rebloomers when crossed to non rebloomers and when crossed to summer rebloomers. Yet if it was entirely a recessive gene trait, then Whenever X Whenever, should produce 100% rebloomers, I'm currently getting about 25%. Thus a multiple factor effect, and some of the genes need to be dominant.
Could very well be same thing with Summer rebloomers. As if a simple recessive, then summer rebloomers X summer rebloomers would equal 100% rebloomers.
My cross producing 50% rebloomers is the highest percentage I've encountered.
Anyone get higher then 50% reblooming seedlings in a cross?
Chuck Chapman
From: Betty Wilkerson <A*@aol.com>
To: i*@yahoogroups.com; i*@hort.net
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:28 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
,<<If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only explination that I can se so far is two dominants, which gives the 25%>>
I seem to have some problems (still) understanding the difference in breeding with dominants & recessives.
Based on the words--dominant should mean that these genes will prevale over others. If you cross two purple selfs, will you not get puple selfs? You have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)
Recessive--does this not mean that the genes try to disappear? Thus you must have some on both sides of the cross to have any chance of getting the color etc..? You only get pink irises if pink exists on both sides of the cross.
As to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100% rebloom in my climate.
As to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100% rebloom in my climate.
Betty W. . . . . also posting this on iris talk.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <i*@aim.com>
To: iris-photos <i*@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
-----Original Message-----
From: loic tasquier <t*@cs.com>
To: i*@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
From: Chuck Chapman <i*@aim.com>
To: iris-photos <i*@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
Frost Echo and Negra Modelo are both Fall Cyclic rebloomers. So basically anything crossed with them will produce some rebloomers. That is because FC reblooming is basically a dominant trait.
I would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are the secondary characteristics which enhance rebloom and earlier rebloom on seedlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more it makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up.
I had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses using these principals. Most of these were from FC reblomers crossed to plants with high plant vigour, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50% rebloomers.
I did get rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with result looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant genes as being involved in the rebloom complex. If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only explination that I can se so far is two dominants, which gives the 25%. And one of these dominants very well may be the Facilitative Vernalization gene.
I have tested vigour hypothesei with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm Shift ( the plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get one plant that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as plant had been mature for a long time,
While FC X FC may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not necessarily so. A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC rebloomers here) had about 30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature plants (2006 cross) there has been no rebloom. I would suspect that crossing either of these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I would get much better results
The Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in their complex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a carrier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer rebloomer and vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant.
Something like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a vigorous grower. So does have one of the secondary characteristics that can be helpful.
Certainly keep your data. I would be very interested in your results, as I'm still sorting out all the factors.
I'm starting to suspect that all of the rebloomers have Vernalization facilitative genes. More research and data is neded.
Chuck Chapman
I would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are the secondary characteristics which enhance rebloom and earlier rebloom on seedlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more it makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up.
I had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses using these principals. Most of these were from FC reblomers crossed to plants with high plant vigour, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50% rebloomers.
I did get rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with result looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant genes as being involved in the rebloom complex. If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only explination that I can se so far is two dominants, which gives the 25%. And one of these dominants very well may be the Facilitative Vernalization gene.
I have tested vigour hypothesei with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm Shift ( the plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get one plant that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as plant had been mature for a long time,
While FC X FC may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not necessarily so. A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC rebloomers here) had about 30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature plants (2006 cross) there has been no rebloom. I would suspect that crossing either of these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I would get much better results
The Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in their complex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a carrier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer rebloomer and vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant.
Something like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a vigorous grower. So does have one of the secondary characteristics that can be helpful.
Certainly keep your data. I would be very interested in your results, as I'm still sorting out all the factors.
I'm starting to suspect that all of the rebloomers have Vernalization facilitative genes. More research and data is neded.
Chuck Chapman
From: loic tasquier <t*@cs.com>
To: i*@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
ï
Yes Chuck, "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, Linda still hesitates to register it.
Even if the texture is a bit thin, there aren't that many excellent rebloomers on the market, and this one is very reliable!
I know there is nothing certain to call an iris ' Rebloom Carrier ' but it is just a personal way of selecting the irises i think have a potential to give rebloomers if crossed with rebloomers:
'Rain Dance' does not rebloom but, crossed with 'Frost Echo', has given the rebloomer 'Raindance Returns'.
'Punk' does not rebloom neither but, crossed with 'Negro Modelo', has given the rebloomer 'Under My Thumb'.
I hope that my B204D = Step Ahead x Forever is a ' Rebloom Carrier ', having 'Forever Blue' as pol parent.
And finally, i also hope 'Spell' is a ' Rebloom Carrier ' with so many rebloomers in his parentage.
I have spent months sorting out into two categories the irises that i thought had potentioal, and the ones that didn't.
It's just a handy tool that helps me sort my crosses like this:
R X R : REB X REB
R X C : REB X CARRIER
R X N : REB X NON CARRIER
(I might eventually make a more accurate selection by adding to the REB criteria E-REB for Early Rebloom and L-REB for Late Rebloom )
I now have hundreds of seedlings that have at least one reblooming parent.
I call them my 'Rebloom Carriers', and even if they are incompatible, I still hope that after several generations, i will finally get some rebloom.
----- Original Message -----From: i*@aim.comTo: i*@yahoogroups.comSent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:03 PMSubject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
I'm assumming "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, as I'm unable to find any information on it.What is the rebloom information on it?If it is a Fall Cyclic rebloomer , then you will get a number of good FC rebloomers from cross with Autumn Jester, and some FC rebloomer s from the other crosses.If it is a Summer Rebloomers, then no rebloomers from the other crosses unless one of them has the correct gene set carried as recessive.Lotic, what information do you use to classify something as a "Rebloom Carrier" ?Fall Cyclic and Vernalization facilitative rebloomers seem to be a result of a dominant gene, thus you can't have carriers. Although some plants may have these rebloom genes but lack secondary genes to enable rebloom.For "Summer rebloomers" and "Whenever Rebloomers" there are at least one set of recessive rebloom genes, so you can have carriers, but two differerent types. And each seems to also have at least one set of dominant genes as well. I suspect "Whenever" rebloomers to have a recessive gene plus two dominant genes.Chuck Chapman
-----Original Message-----
From: loic tasquier <t*@cs.com>
To: i*@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:48 am
Subject: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
Hello Linda,Here are the crosses i have managed with your reblooming " Cloud Shadow" = Immortality X Celebration Song.As you can see, it is fertile both ways.They are not TB X TB crosses, i know, but this mail is, in fact, for the Median Fans:I will back-cross some of the best babies with their smaller parent.If you are interested in back-crosses with "Cloud Shadows", i can make them and send you the seeds, but that will take some time!
2009cross SDB X TB 
'Autumn Jester'REBLOOMER31seeds 2009cross TB X SDB 
'Punk'SPACE AGEREBLOOM-CARRIER18seeds 2010cross SDB X TB 7seeds 2010cross SDB X TB 9seeds 2010cross TB X MTB
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