iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
- Subject: Re: HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
- From: E* H* <e*@mymts.net>
- Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 15:23:58 -0600
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This is starting to make more sense these days,
Chuck, so I thank you!
I rarely make iris crosses, as I'm always busy
documenting what's blooming and what hasn't survived. I do have some
nice bee pod seedlings though.
So I figure if I get a plan together before spring
finally arrives, I might actually give it a try, especially with a few of my
pumilas and aphyllas doing so well, plus maybe some of your
"whenever's".
El
From: i*@aim.com
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 1:34 PM
To: i*@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud
Shadow" Rcessive
-dominant traits can be tricky to get a good handle on. Basically you have
dominant genes and absence of dominant genes. The absence of the dominant
genes leads to what is referred to as recessive state.
The recessive state is often a collection of the same defective gene. And to make matters more confusing, most dominant genes are only partially dominant, to differerent degrees. You need only one dominant gene, out of four in a tetraploid, to do its job. So one anthocyanin producing gene can give you a purple (on yellow ground) or a blue in absence of yellow. So crossing two purples that have only one gene to produce anthocyanin, will give you 1/4 of offspring without anthrocyanin. So yellow from cross of two purples , or from cross of purple X blue. Or white from a cross of two blues. In process of producing cartenoid pigment, the lycopene preceeds beta-carotene in the chain of chemical conversions. It takes only one of the beta-carotene genes to convert the lycopene to beta-carotene. The absence of any beta-carotene producing gene will result in a lycopene pink flower (simplified, ignoting tjhe other genes involved) So if an effect depends on two dominant genes, then crossing two plants having this trait, each with one copy of the the two dominant genes, only 1/4 of the offspring will have a copy of both of the dominant genes. And thus have the trait. With my "Whenever Rebloomers" I know there is a recessive trait occuring as no rebloomers when crossed to non rebloomers and when crossed to summer rebloomers. Yet if it was entirely a recessive gene trait, then Whenever X Whenever, should produce 100% rebloomers, I'm currently getting about 25%. Thus a multiple factor effect, and some of the genes need to be dominant. Could very well be same thing with Summer rebloomers. As if a simple recessive, then summer rebloomers X summer rebloomers would equal 100% rebloomers. My cross producing 50% rebloomers is the highest percentage I've encountered. Anyone get higher then 50% reblooming seedlings in a cross? Chuck Chapman From: Betty Wilkerson <Autmirislvr@aol.com> To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com; iris@hort.net Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:28 pm Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow" ,<<If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only explination that I can se so far is two dominants, which gives the 25%>> I seem to have some problems (still) understanding the difference in
breeding with dominants & recessives.
Based on the words--dominant should mean that these genes will prevale over
others. If you cross two purple selfs, will you not get puple selfs?
You have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)
Recessive--does this not mean that the genes try to disappear? Thus
you must have some on both sides of the cross to have any chance of getting the
color etc..? You only get pink irises if pink exists on both sides of the
cross.
As to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100% rebloom in my climate. Betty W. . . . . also posting this on iris talk.
-----Original
Message----- From: Chuck Chapman <i*@aim.com> To: iris-photos <i*@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow" Frost Echo and
Negra Modelo are both Fall Cyclic rebloomers. So basically anything crossed with
them will produce some rebloomers. That is because FC reblooming is
basically a dominant trait.
I would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are the secondary characteristics which enhance rebloom and earlier rebloom on seedlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more it makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up. I had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses using these principals. Most of these were from FC reblomers crossed to plants with high plant vigour, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50% rebloomers. I did get rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with result looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant genes as being involved in the rebloom complex. If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only explination that I can se so far is two dominants, which gives the 25%. And one of these dominants very well may be the Facilitative Vernalization gene. I have tested vigour hypothesei with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm Shift ( the plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get one plant that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as plant had been mature for a long time, While FC X FC may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not necessarily so. A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC rebloomers here) had about 30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature plants (2006 cross) there has been no rebloom. I would suspect that crossing either of these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I would get much better results The Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in their complex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a carrier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer rebloomer and vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant. Something like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a vigorous grower. So does have one of the secondary characteristics that can be helpful. Certainly keep your data. I would be very interested in your results, as I'm still sorting out all the factors. I'm starting to suspect that all of the rebloomers have Vernalization facilitative genes. More research and data is neded. Chuck Chapman From: loic tasquier <t*@cs.com> To: i*@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow" ï
Yes Chuck, "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, Linda
still hesitates to register it.
Even if the texture is a bit thin, there aren't
that many excellent rebloomers on the market, and this one is very
reliable!
I know there is nothing certain to call an
iris ' Rebloom Carrier ' but it is just a personal way of selecting the
irises i think have a potential to give rebloomers if crossed with
rebloomers:
'Rain Dance' does not rebloom but, crossed
with 'Frost Echo', has given the rebloomer 'Raindance Returns'.
'Punk' does not rebloom neither but, crossed with
'Negro Modelo', has given the rebloomer 'Under My Thumb'.
I hope that my B204D = Step Ahead x Forever
is a ' Rebloom Carrier ', having 'Forever Blue' as pol parent.
And finally, i also hope 'Spell' is a '
Rebloom Carrier ' with so many rebloomers in his parentage.
I have spent months sorting out into two categories
the irises that i thought had potentioal, and the ones that didn't.
It's just a handy tool that helps me sort
my crosses like this:
R X R : REB X REB
R X C : REB X CARRIER
R X N : REB X NON CARRIER
(I might eventually make a more accurate selection
by adding to the REB criteria E-REB for Early Rebloom and L-REB for Late
Rebloom )
I now have hundreds of seedlings that have at least
one reblooming parent.
I call them my 'Rebloom Carriers', and even if they
are incompatible, I still hope that after several generations, i will
finally get some rebloom.
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