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Re: Re: HYB TB Photo: SLY FOX x CELESTE correction

  • Subject: Re: Re: HYB TB Photo: SLY FOX x CELESTE correction
  • From: "Margie Valenzuela" <IrisLady@comcast.net>
  • Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:48:06 -0700


Thank you Chuck, yes that all does make sense.
Question: the goal with this specific cross was to see if I could come up with a pure white TB with a dark blue beard, how probable is that?  
~ Margie V.
Oro Valley, AZ.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 5:17 AM
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: HYB TB Photo: SLY FOX x CELESTE correction


Thanks for the data. When looking at a specific , such as inheritence
of cartenoid pigments, we have to ignore all the anthocyanin and
pattern of distribution as irrelevant. Thus an amber or a brown, or a
red etc all have inherited cartenoids. For anyone wanting to look more
closely, at the cartenoids in a flower petal, place petal in boiling
water. Of actually, place petal in a dish and pour boiling hot water on
it. The anthocyanin will wash out (water soluble) and the cartenoids
are left. If anthocyanis are very heavy, a couple of washes are

Likewise, pattern of distribution of pigments is also irrelevant.

So, of the 16 seedlings from crossing Sly Fox to a cultivar having
cartenoid pigment, all 16 have inherited cartenoids. As expected from
crossing a white to a yellow with the repression of yellow being a

To test chi-square fit, you would subtract 17 from 17 and do some math
on result , which is zero, and end up with zero probability that it
is"not" a recessive. In statistics you always test for results against
your hypothes, disproving the oposite (ie that the repression of yellow
is a dominant) thus by inference proving your idea. A strange way, but
t he way it is done.

Another way of looking at data is as a binomial distributiopn. That is,
if repression of cartenoid is a dominant then half of seedlings
would have cartenoids and half wouldn't.20a proability of 1/2 or .5 for
each seedling. On this basis . your would expect 8 of seedlings to have
cartenoid and 8 not. So getting 16 of 16 is like flipping a coin and
getting 16 heads in a row Proability of this is 0.0000152587890625 .

So we can safely say that the repression of cartenoids is a recessive,
in Sly Fox.

Most blues and whites are rrC, and I have made many crosses of this
type and have never gotten a seedling with cartenoid pigment. It is
very immprobable that Lady Celesta is anything other then a rrC.

So yellow has to either be a result of stray pollen or other accident ,
or a recessive yellow as what I call alternative yellow.

As for variagata pattern of anthocyanin on seedling, Linda is correct.
The variagata distribution of anthocyanin could have been hidden in
either parent. In Sly Fox because pattern gene for variagata could be
present but not seen as it doesn't have any anthocyanin, or in Lady
Celesta as it doesn't show as it is all anthocyanin.

Hope this makes sense.

Chuck Chapman

Re: HYB TB Photo: SLY FOX x CELESTE correction

Posted by: "Margie Valenzuela"


Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:52 am (PDT)

So far, I've only had 2 maiden blooms from this cross. The rest
of the seedlings should have their maiden bloom this coming spring, so
there really is not any other siblings to compare that specific cross
with at this time.

However, I've had other maiden blooms from SLY FOX. All these were
maiden blooms as well and not all of their siblings have bloomed yet

From my 2009 notes:

BENGAL TIGER x SLY FOX produced 3 yellows with white veining around the

SLY FOX x TROPICAL BUTTERFLY produced 1 medium grey/blue-brown self.

SLY FOX x BURST produced 4 yellows. 3 pure yellows,

and 1 with honey/rust standards and a honey/rust rim on the falls.

BROADWAY X SLY FOX had 5 maiden blooms this spring late in the season -
most had heat damage as we were into 100 plus degree heat when they

This cross produced 2 yellow selfs;

1 yellow sibling with brown veining around the beard;

1 sibling had light yellow standards with rusty-brown blue/purple blend
falls edged with a yellow rim;

AND *** 1 very similar to the 'rich yellow' SLY FOX x LADY CELESTE
seedling, only it's a light lemon yellow, with a smaller circle around
the beard but in white (brown veining on shoulders & around the beard),
AND has the identical (same honey color) ringed wash on the falls only
somewhat lighter in color.

hose 2 'look-a-like' half-siblings could easily pass themselves off as
siblings. None of these seedlings reproduced a red beard, all had
yellow or orange beards.

Maybe some of this information may help???

~ Margie V.

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