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Re: Re: HYB: 2nd year sprouts
  • Subject: Re: Re: HYB: 2nd year sprouts
  • From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
  • Date: Sat, 26 May 2012 12:21:49 -0400 (EDT)


I too have found keepers in second year germination plants. but don't
think there is any difference in percentages from first year

Memories can play tricks. And errors can occur. With small numbers it
is easy to get differences between 1st and 2nd year germination . But
to know if it is significant you need large enough numbers and hard
core data to enable a mathematical test. Usually at least 6 of each
colour. or genetic trait (eg tangerine beard) so you can check
distribution between years.

I have never seen any evidence for this and I do keep good records.
Including a good number of croses where I photograph every seedling,
regardless of when it germinate or blooms. Coded for year of bloom.

I also don't see any direct bio-chemical connection between
germination chemical chains and any other flower trait. If any exists
it would have to be a gene linkage between these traits that do not
have a bio-chemical link shared. There would (if any exists) be only
on one trait, not multiple traits. So we would never get, for instance,
a tangerine factor plus an intensity trait. There are many many
thousands genes in each plant. Every single bio-chemical, protein,
co-enzyme, chaperone molecule etc, etc, has its own gene. And they are
all strung out along the different chromosomes. So the probability of
any two being closely located to each other is small. The probability
of three particular ones is astronomically low, and of three, well,
probably about 1 divided by infinity. Remember, genes are randomly
distributed. There is no overall organization of particular types of
genes being located near each other. Although control genes are often
located close to the structural gene, but only in folded state, not
necessarily close on linear chain. That is they end up being close to
each other after DNA is folded into tertiary structure to form

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net.com>
To: iris-photos <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, May 26, 2012 8:11 am
Subject: [iris-photos] Re: HYB: 2nd year sprouts

Chuck, I wouldn't attempt any kind of stats on these data - from memory
- 1 t-bearded white in year 2 vs 0 in year 1 ;-) 2 selfs in year 1 vs
0 in year 2. 1 amoena in year 1 vs maybe 4? (the first year cycle
reblooms, tossed all the second years, no rebloom). 3 or 4 creams year
1 vs 0 year 2. One cycle rebloom year 1 vs 0 year 2.

The only color possibly well enough represented both years is white - I
think there were 3? or maybe 4 the first year, 4 the second. marginal
even for chi square.

Plus most of the germination was the first year in this cross. Given
much smaller population the second year, the white ratios might be
significantly diff. big woop ;-) recessive vs dominant white? (just
add more confusion...)

And there is the added problem with sampling seedling color here -
remember I'm trying to breed for disease resistance, so even with that
fairly large population of survivors from IMM X Csong, seedlings died
before blooming.

So &lt;if&gt; (and you've already said you don't accept this as
probable) any
of the genes related to disease resistance are on the same chromosomes
as any of the color/pattern genes, results would be skewed (i.e., no
longer 'normal')

Anyway, personally, I'm not convinced those differences were 'real'
(stat limitations aside).

I'm much more convinced (in &lt;my&gt; seedlings) there are differences
between 1st and 2nd year germinants and disease/climate resistance.
Coulda had decent data from BEHOLD A LADY X CSONG - about half
germinated the first year, the rest the second, so good balance. None
of the first years thrived - I think there might be one little scrap of
one still out there, all the second years were robust, healthier (but
not super healthy) growers. Those that survived long enough to bloom -
n=9 yr 1, n=6 (I think) yr 2; I think there were still big clumps of 5?
of the second years out there last year. Not sure how well they have
held up to weeds and summer heat/drought the last couple of years.
Nearly abandoned row segments.

I have pretty good 1st and 2nd germ on a few crosses from 2010 - will
try to keep notes for comparison.

Anybody know Joe Ghio well enough to ask him about color/pattern
differences he's seen between first and second year germinants, if any?
In one of his catalogs, he mentioned finding 2nd year germinant
'keepers' in a seedbed that he hadn't gotten around to renovating
several years ago (in subsequent years, those seedlings were introduced
as parentage unknown, tho I think he's edited some of those since - not
sure) & has since been intentionally holding seeds for a second year of

Linda Mann

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