iris-photos@yahoogroups.com
- Subject: Re: Re: watering time (was REB: genetics)
- From: J* L* <j*@yahoo.com>
- Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 21:55:03 -0800 (PST)
|
Hi Griff, I want to come and eat with your Iris Society. Your dinner sounds wonderful. Was it a pot-luck or ?? We will have our annual San Fernando Valley Iris Society Holiday potluck the first week in December. Turkey and everything people make for the evening. I think that iris people are wonderful cooks! I think that you may be able to water in the morning because you have higher humidity than we do. We are usually below 20-25%. We also have our hot weather with humidity under 15% (one of the reasons we have such fire danger). We can get up to 105 for a week at a time any time from May until October, with the low humidity. If we get rain it is usually between November and March. This year was very strange as we actually had some rain in April and, unbelievably, in October. Our annual rainfall is usually between 13 and 15 inches. And we have watering restrictions - before 9 and after 4 - three days a week. When we water in the evening the soil stays wet for the night and the plants can take in the water. Watering in the morning means that the soil will be dried out quickly. We can reach 80 degrees sometime every day during a mild December and most of them are fairly mild. Our cold weather, low 40s in the daytime, occasionally down to 32 at night (I might get 2 nights a year) - more likely high 40s to mid 50s in the day time, usually comes in January and February. But it can be in the 70s and 80s anytime, even in those months. Of course our weather means that nothing hibernates here. I had my car towed to the shop this morning because, for the second time in two weeks!, the ground squirrels had eaten the spark plug and other wires. ANYONE with methods to stop them from eating the wires - suggestions welcome! I planted my 'spring' bulbs about 3-4 weeks ago when I planted my last iris. We were having one of those unusual rainy days - we got 1/2". Then last week we were in the high 90s for 4 days. I have a flower on one narcissus today and the buds on about many others will be out any day. I must have planted late this year as last year they were in bloom for Halloween. Different kinds will bloom each month from now until about March. Photos taken a few minutes ago attached. Jan in Chatsworth From: J. Griffin Crump <jgcrump@cox.net> To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 5:42:39 PM Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings)
Jan -- Here on the east coast many of us water in the early
morning, ending by 9 a.m. The morning sun dries both the plants and the
soil without âcookingâ the foliage. Yesterday, as we were enjoying the
sumptuous annual harvest dinner of the Fredericksburg (VA) Area Iris Society
(turkey, mashed potatoes, sausage stuffing, gravy, green beans, broccoli and
cheese sauce, cranberry sauce, cornbread, green salad, cherry pie, apple pie and
plum pudding -- I can only remember the dishes I ate (twice)), one
of our members mentioned that she waters her plants, when necessary, in the
evening. Two of our hybridizers admonished her that morning watering was
preferable because evening watering, wherein the ground lies sodden all night,
tends to promote the growth of mold and other bad things. At that point,
one of our growers observed that Mother Nature needs to be re-trained since her
predominant pattern is to visit us with late afternoon and evening
thunderstorms. Iâve often thought about that myself, but I still do my
watering in the morning. -- Griff
From: j*@yahoo.com
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 12:34 PM
To: i*@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's
seedlings)
Chuck, Your comment on the watering sounds true. I
always water the iris in the evening because I am afraid that the hot daytime
temps will cook the leaves if I do it in the morning or midday.
As to Sky Queen: The same clump would bloom at least twice, sometimes three times. I gave it to a friend in Orange County (a little further south) a few years ago. She only has two clumps and they both bloom at least 3 times a year - any month. Her clumps are in full sun. I will reread your article about leaf count. Thanks for all comments. Love to read everything you post. I have learned so much from them. Jan in Chatsworth From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com> To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 8:38:45 AM Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings) Check my article
in Spring 2009 rebloomer. I had details on leaf count in there. Each cultivar
has it's own mature leaf count. Average was about 11-12. But I found a low as
low as 9 and as couple as high as 15.
The last two leaves don't often show until bud set has initiated. The last leave will show as basal leaf on bloom stalk. Leaf scars on rhizome are included in leaf count. These represent leaves that have died, and been cleaned off. Do any these people with rebloom have min/max records for their garden, so it can be checked? With Sky Queen, was it rebloom on these clumps , or initial bloom on different clumps? With micro-climates , if min temp in main part of garden hovered around 70, micro-climates could very well have had bud trigger temperatures. Also of note, if watering is regular, and at cooler part of day, it can lower temerature enough to bring apical meristem (which is located about 1/2" above rhizome) into bud set temperature range. A procedure that could be used for people who's temperature hovers just above bud set temperatures, to initiate bud set and rebloom. Chuck Chapman From: Jan Lauritzen <janicelauritzen@yahoo.com> To: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, Nov 14, 2010 1:21 am Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings) Chuck,
You and others have referred to "mature state (as measured by leaf count)". Can you please tell me the number of leaves a plant must develop in order to bloom? All this temperature discussion is interesting to someone here in the San Fernando Valley of Southern California where the nighttime temperature may not drop below 70 any time from April until late October. And yet there is a lot of bloom here and irises can bloom any time. Our main requirement is providing summer and fall water as we get so little (read that as usually none) from April until November. I had one year when I had at least one flower in bloom EVERY day for one full year. Frequently, the only one in bloom was 'Sky Queen' which would bloom for me 3 to 5 times per year because I had it planted in different microclimates around the place. Jan in Chatsworth From: Chuck Chapman <i*@aim.com> To: i*@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, November 13, 2010 6:49:11 AM Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings) I don't consider
a plant to reblom unless it consistently has two periods of bloom a season, on
same clump.
If a plant doesn't bloom in spring, but blooms in July/Aug for you, then that would be initial season bloom for you. If a plant has had vernalization, but hadn't had bud set , as plant is not at mature state (as measured by leaf count) in spring, then it won't bloom in spring. with other plants. If it reaches maturity slightly after regular spring bloom then it could very well have the nighttime temperatures to enable bud set, and thus initial bloom after regular season. Vernalization is an "Epigenetic" event. All the cells in the plant are set into a different state, and are primed for bloom. When a plant blooms in spring, the plant and all attatched plants (increases) are reset to to the "non-vernalized" state, so plants that mature later, and have bud set, now can't bloom until the plant has had a vernalization reset , by apropriate cool weather. If there are no bloom stalks on clump, then plant continues in a vernalized state, and can respond to further biological signals, even if out of normal sequence. So if one clump of the cultivar blooms in spring, and another clump doesn't bloom in spring, but does so later , this is not rebloom, as on seperate clumps.. Same with a cultivar that gets out of sequence and bloom only in fall, but has imature increases that don't bloom in spring. So for me, rebloom means that the same clump, can, and does relatively consistently, have two bloom periods (or more) per season. Chuck Chapman From: Betty Wilkerson <A*@aol.com> To: i*@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Nov 13, 2010 7:28 am Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings) <<That is initial bloom out of season. Not rebloom.>> << plant will only do this the once. After that it is synchronized
with environment and plant controls.>>
I'm guessing you are referring to individual rhizomes and not to the
cultivar? So, it's possible that a cultivar could have a trait where
it typically doesn't reach maturity in time and blooms in the summer? Like my
'Summer Radiance?' Then an increase could inherit the trait and do the
same thing? So, in theory, you could have a clump that "appears" to
rebloom regularly in the summer, but doesn't fit the "definition" of
rebloom?
Thanks,
Betty . . .
-----Original
Message----- From: Chuck Chapman <i*@aim.com> To: iris-photos <i*@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Nov 12, 2010 11:46 pm Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings) I have had this
on many an occasion, and it had been reported by many people.
That is initial bloom out of season. Not rebloom. Several possible explanations, but plant will only do this the once. After that it is synchronized with environment and plant controls. Chuck Chapman From: Betty Wilkerson <A*@aol.com> To: i*@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Nov 12, 2010 6:32 pm Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings) What is responsible for the seedling
that bloomed 2 stalks beginning July 18? Then, I had six cultivars (mostly
seedlings) that started bloom in August. Night temperatures didn't drop
below 70 F until the last week of Aug. (for the required six consecutive
nights.)
I understand that this is what triggers the fall cycle. Since it
didn't limit the ones above, I'm wondering why the irises that are capable of
doing the same, did not do so. They should not be limited by the need for
falling temperatures!
Betty W.
KY zone 6
-----Original
Message----- From: Chuck Chapman <i*@aim.com> To: iris-photos <i*@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Nov 12, 2010 8:27 am Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings) You can't get rebloom until
there is bud set. That depends on temperature, ie 6 nights
with min 59-68F. (of course variations around this average) As you didn't get
this condition until fall, this will be your limiting condition.
I suspect ph is a minor concern. Chuck Chapman From: Betty Wilkerson <A*@aol.com> To: i*@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Nov 12, 2010 8:41 am Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings) <<Triggering for Fall cyclic and Summer rebloomers needs proper environmental conditions.>> Chuck, I knew that I had high night temperatures. There were
few nights below 70 degrees (F) all summer--over two months. None with six
in a row. I didn't expect much bloom on the cycle rebloomers (fall.) I did
hope for bloom on the summer rebloomers, or early fall rebloomers, since I
watered them through the summer.
As Colleen has stated, I think my problem may be ph adjustment.
Betty Wilkerson
Zone 6-KY
-----Original
Message----- From: Chuck Chapman <i*@aim.com> To: iris-photos <i*@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 10:48 pm Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings) Triggering for
Fall cyclic and Summer rebloomers needs proper environmental
conditions.
Need to be a leaf count maturity, and in environmaent sutible for growth. Plus 6 nights in a row with minimum temperature between 15-21 C or 59-68F. Also can't be in dry or heat dormancy. Check you temperature records for summer. Chuck Chapman From: Betty Wilkerson <A*@aol.com> To: i*@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 12:04 pm Subject: Re: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings) <<A plant can have genetics for rebloom, but not rebloom in a
certain climate as environmental conditions are not suitable, or
more likely secondary genetic factors in combintion are not suitable
to trigger rebloom for that climate.>>
This seems to be the case in my garden for sure. Many of the irises
that are reputed to be very good rebloomers all over the country, haven't been
happy in my current garden. Even this year, with altered conditions the
rebloom was very limited. There were many wasted stalks on plants that,
theoretically, should have bloomed much earlier. It could have been the
results of the two months with the relentless high & low temperatures for
two months, but I have a feeling there is something more. Maybe the
secondary needs?
We may need a reminder of the secondary genetic factors/needs you speak
about. Are we talking modifiers here? Soil condition may be as
important as climate.
<<There are four genetic systems for rebloom. (From what I can tell at moment) These are all different , and don't sem to be complemetal or cumulative. So they don't add to each other. >> I seem to remember you stating that some are dominant over others.
You don't believe two or more rebloom genes can transfer to the same
plant? (Just restating in a different form.)
Can we recruit some new rebloom hybridizers? Any takers out
there?
Betty W.
Zone 6
-----Original
Message----- From: Chuck Chapman <i*@aim.com> To: iris-photos <i*@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 9:59 am Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings) If the "preferntial Rebloomers" have a long enough growing season in your
climate, then they would rebloom in your garden.
I have noted some more northern gardens that can do this. But they have a long growing time between last frost in spring and first hard frost of fall. To tell if you climate is suitable for this type of rebloom, grow some of these plants. Don't count any fall bloom in year of acquisition. But again, in colder areas, they will likely be racing against frost. There are four genetic systems for rebloom. (From what I can tell at moment) These are all different , and don't sem to be complemetal or cumulative. So they don't add to each other. But secondary conditions are additive. That is , rapidity of growth, low leaf count maturity, wider temperature range for bud set, fast increase, lower temperature for cold dormancy, higher temperature for heat dormancy , drought tolerance, earlier bloom time , tolerance of crowded conditions, etc.. So these secondary factors can be added from combining differernt genetic rebloomers (or from any other plant having these secondary genetics). But still only earliest rebloom trigger will give you rebloom. A plant can have genetics for rebloom, but not rebloom in a certain climate as environmental conditions are not suitable, or more likely secondary genetic factors in combintion are not suitable to trigger rebloom for that climate. Lloyd Zurbigg found this. He made a lot of rebloom crosses here in Canada, but had little sucesse. When he moved to USA, these same seedlings rebloomed for him. Chuck Chapman From: Linda Mann <l*@lock-net.com> To: i*@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, Nov 11, 2010 6:29 am Subject: [iris-photos] Re: REB: genetics (was Rose Kinnard's seedlings) I'm not convinced yet that in my long growing season some of the
"summer" bloomers here don't also have what you are calling preferential vernalization genetic makeup. Plus I thought that there are multiple genes contributing to rebloom? So it's not just presence/absence of a particular type of vernalization requirement. Are you positive it's a different gene and not just a different suite of max/min & duration of temperature requirements? Takes a lot of crosses to answer that question, I think. Most of the CA and Oz (and esp OR) rebloomers are in what is more or less zone 8, close enough to my zone 7b temperatures. Now if we can just combine wet/humid enthusiasm with their dry summer/low humidity selection, and if all the other genes that contribute to rebloom match up... I agree that it seems unlikely to work for you that far north, Chuck. Wait for global warming? ;-) > Final Episode seems to be one of those iris that rebloom when it has an extended period of warm weather while in a mature state. A class of rebloomers that are basically "prefernial vernalization" as versus "Obligatory vernalization". > > Obligatory vernalization means that the plant has to have vernalization before blooming. Preferntial vernalization have a secondary sytem, that enables it to rebloom when it has had a long period while sitting at maturity. These types will rebloom in Australia and California, but not else where. > > So breeding with it will perhaps produce California rebloomers, but unles you live in a climate that has an apropriate long warm growth period, it won't contribute much to a rebloom program. > > Chuck Chapman Linda Mann east TN zone 7b USA |
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