Re: Re: 'Gerald Darby': Seeds, Descriptions, Nomenclature

---

Sean,

what you have here outlined is essentially true.  There is no real protection of names other than 'the first published use of a name takes precedence'.  Such cultivar names cannot be patented, however, a copywrite on a particular name can be filed, thus legally securing a name, but this does not secure the cultivar itself, only this version of naming.  That is to say, a copywritten name cannot be marketed without permission, but the thus named plant must be patented to obtain secured rights for the owner.  We see this with roses all the time.  A cultivar will be patented under a name, often a nonsensical name, while it will be marketed under a variety of names, all or none of which may be copywritten.  Many names cannot be copywritten as they fall already within public domain.  Often a suffix is copywritten and used by a firm to legitimize their wares; such as Palace(c) Pink petunia or Kordes (c) Aloha ( a new use of the name Aloha for a rose).

Registering a plant cultivar under that plants registering body will give one certain rights, as it dates and describes this name/plant combination, although it secures no real legal rights.  Should the registered plant come before a court, it will now have good footing.  However, should one have registered a plant as Diamond Dust and then another releases a plant, even the same clone, under the name Bobbie's Diamond Dust, one gets through the proverbial loop-hole.  Only if the plant had been patented, does one have recourse.

Registries are very important and valuable bodies, which, although most are overworked and have too many look-alikes being registered, are our best source for maintaining information on hybrids and selected clones.  I wish more of them were available to the general public, which the Iris registry largely isn't.  One must be an AIS member to access most of it.  Only the ASI has an open domain registry for arils, that I know of.  I strongly believe this policy has caused much confusion over the years as to which name belongs to which plant.

Jamie Vande
Cologne

Am 07.12.2010 21:27, schrieb Sean A. Zera:

I of course meant to type Avent.

If I understand the ICNCP correctly, I could, right this second,  
create a web page offering to sell my own boring TB seedlings to the  
public. As long as I post a picture of each plant with the name I have  
given it, that becomes the official name of that iris cultivar. It  
would presumably be a good idea for me to register the name with AIS  
as well so that someone's keeping better track of the data, but it's  
not necessary, according to international rules.

Sean Z




Quoting "Sean A. Zera" z*@umich.edu:

What Advent is trying to say is that under the International Code of
Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants, if some Dutch grower names a new
iris cultivar and introduces it to the public, that cultivar name is
the legitimate name (assuming no other iris has been so previously
named). They do not have to register it with anyone, and no one can
use that name for another iris, not even AIS. This is true for any
cultivated plant.


Sean Z




Quoting Polly p*@yahoo.com:

The English base of Gerald Darby is one reason I thought Claire
Austins iris might be more accurate.

Just in case you would like to see it here is my discussion with
Tony Avent. There is also quite a bit about it on the JI robin.
Dennis Hager contacted Tony Avent also.

Where Mr. Avent says try to get these irises registered makes no
sense, and he knows it. If you buy five of those irises you probably
will never get the one you ordered.

Another thing he states, "Once a cultivar name and image are
published, that name is established and valid. " So, in essence that
would make my Gerald Darby established and valid, since it has been
named and an image published, at least as far back as 1998.

First my email, then Mr. Avents.

Hello there,
I am a beardless iris grower, and I was looking at your site for
something nifty to buy, and saw Queen's Tiara. A lovely picture.

I checked the Japanese iris registry, and there is no iris
registered under that name. I then searched for it on the internet,
and came up with only your listing and Van Bourgodien.

Please tell me that it's an old registry or some such, and that your
company is not selling no named, made up named, or incorrectly named
irises from the Dutch growers, which is becoming a huge problem in
the Japanese iris industry, and has been the subject of many a
discussion in the Japanese Iris Society.

i would truly love to know the origion of Queen's Tiara.

i was able to find Tora Tora listed under Tora-Tora, so I'm hoping
I'm just not finding Queen's Circle for some odd reason.

Thank you,

Polly Kinsman


Dear Polly:

Thanks for your note about the Japanese iris.  As you are most
certainly aware, far less than 1% of all perennial cultivars are
"registered" with the proper authorities.  Once a cultivar name and
image are published, that name is established and valid.  Proper
registrations certainly make my job catalog writing easier, but any
nursery who decides to only carry "registered" cultivars would
quickly be out of business.  I would suggest that you encourage the
Japanese Iris Society to work to register these unregistered
varieties, as has been done by groups such as the American Hosta
Society.  It's the only way to make this happen since many breeders
often have no reason or interest to register them themselves.  Think
of this as you would purchasing a pet....a tiny handful of folks
will only buy a "registered" pet, while the majority of people could
care less and buy one because it looks nice and performs well.  I
hope this helps.




--- In i*@yahoogroups.com, ChatOWhitehall@... wrote:

I'm coming late to this discussion, so forgive me, please,?if I
repeat other contributions. I'm just lining out some Check List
data?here for my own information, so will share a few thoughts.
?
Regarding pods, note that the?revised entry for Iris 'Gerald Darby'
in the 1989 AIS Check Lists says?"Sets few good seeds." It reads,
in toto,
?
GERALD DARBY. (G. Darby by Coe, R. 1968) Change of classification,
description, and parentage, to: LAEV?apogon hybrid, up to 6' (183
cm). Blue violet with violet-colored leaf bases. Appears to belong
to I. xrobusta, E. Anderson, the cross of I. veriscolor with I.
virginica. Sets few good seeds. Chromosome count 2n=88-89.???
?
And the original Check List entry, from the 1969 volume:
?
GERALD DARBY. (Coe for G. Darby, deceased, R. '68). Sib-LA, 30",?
June, V1D. Blue-purple self; twisted red stems. Flowers of
Siberian; growth hapbit of I. foliosa. Orientalis x prob. two LA
hybrids. Norton Hall '67.
?
Norton Hall is?identified as Norton Hall Nurseries, Cold Norton,
Essex, England.??
?
Regarding color charts. At various times several different charts
have been favored by people and institutions?in registering the
names of Iris cultivars. There has, however,?been some thought that
the RHS chart was of limited utility as too often the colors did
not match those of the flowers, and the cost was so high that it
was not to be assumed that most people reading the?descriptions
would have the chart to hand to translate the codes.
?
Registrations?for cultivars do differ sunstantially in kind and in
form?from the descriptions required for the?publication of a new
species, which are much more regimented.
?
About botanical drawings: I always feel very frustrated when the
images in Curtis's or wherever do not show the root system, or
bulb. It is uniquely annoying with the Junos; the plants look
hacked off, and implausible.
?
I'm surprized to hear Plant Delights was reportedly?insensitive to
the issues at hand.?I don't worship at the Plant Delights shrine,
or have not since my personal?vision has?matured in another
direction,?but I know that they are, or were, AIS members, and that
Avent has often articulated?firm resolve with regard to ensuring
correct nomenclature of his offerings?from other genera. I can't
see him going off the ethical rails for a bunch of?subprime ensata
seedlings.?
?
AMW

?

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-- 
Jamie V.

_______________________

Köln (Cologne)
Germany
Zone 8