Re: Iris pallida



While all of these have some pallida  genetics in them none of them
are considered pure species  as far as I know. Swertii is probably the
closest to species of the list and Dykes etc. all considered it a
hybrid with other species. As such they can't be used to prove or
disprove the origin of plicata genes in the species. In this contect I
need a pure species plant to start with,   not one that is part
pallida and part some other species. No plicata has ever been found
growing in the wild and Dykes and many other experienced botonists
have looked for it. There has been much speculation as to the origin
of the plicata genes. Swertii and the since lost Iris plicata were
prime suspects. Bliss using collected forms ( collected by dykes)   of
pure Iris pallida and I. variegata was able to reproduce a lot of the
interspecies types that  had been given  species status previously,
presumably including the plicata form. I suspect an interplay of
pigment and  distributional genes from the two species resulted in the
new pattern. I suspect that the contribution from pallida was its
colour and the even distribution of colour and the ccontributuion of
the plicata gene was from I. variagata. To investigate this further
pure species forms are needed for the test crosses. Other people have
tried these test crosses but there is a lot of infertility in the F1
and it is the F2 that will give the telling information. A cross of
Kupari X pallida will also give good information as Kupari is known to
have a complete set of plicata genes of the glaciata type pla.

Hope this fills in the information for you.


Chuck Chapman


--- In iris-species@yahoogroups.com, "David Ferguson" <manzano57@m...>
wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I may be missing something here, perhaps coming in in the middle and
not having seen all of the discussion.  It sounds as if there is an
impression that the plicata pattern is not expressed in I. pallida?
> 
> Here is my two cents worth.  I don't know much about the inheritance
of patterns yet, but am learning.  I have been collecting and growing
diploid cultivars, and have a great interest in them.
> 
> I have grown several cultivars that I have no reason to doubt are
pure I. pallida, and they definitely express a plicata pattern.  These
include:
> 
> Fairy
> Little Freak
> Madame Chereau
> Ma Mie
> Parisiana
> Pocahontas
> Prince Charming
> Swertii
> True Charm
> True Delight
> 
> 'Saint Clair' is a parent to some of the above, and it is (was) a
plicata as well, but I don't know if it is still around.
> 
> According to most of the literature, the original I. plicata is
believed to have been a pure I. pallida as well.
> 
> I have not grown (or at least have not yet flowered) 'Damozel',
'Madame Louesse', Jeanne d' Arc, nor 'Grapette', but suspect they are
pure I. pallida too.  I would guess that there are (or have been) a
number of others.
> 
> Interestingly, I don't think any of these belong to ssp. cengialtii,
but rather all to the more typical subspecies.  However some of them
do have rather small flowers.
> 
> Of these, apparently 'True Delight' is unique in that the dark
coloring is of the rose-pink type instead of the blue-violet. 
However, while 'Damozel' is listed as "blue", the photo I have seen
leans distinctly toward pinkish (if the color in the photo is
accurate, the published description may be off a bit?).
> 
> My personal opinion (not based on much except seeing a lot of
diploid cultivars) is that the pattern of I. variegata and the I.
pallida plicata pattern may be related genetically, and various
expressions and compliments of those genes interact in complicated
ways that may have lead to many of the patterns we now see in TB Iris
cultivars.  I suspect that a large percentage of modern plicatas have
genetics from (at least) both species involved, as the patterns are
often more complicated, in ways that suggest I. variegata.  In the I.
pallida plicatas the markings are always concentrated toward the edges
of the tepals.  I suppose the fact that most modern bearded Iris are
tetraploid, and can carry more duplicate genes, this could affect the
pattern in such ways too?
> 
> I've also noticed that there is a distinct "look" to many of the
first generation tetraploid hybrids that were derived from (I. pallida
X I. variegata) X TB tetraploid species.  There are many of these,
such as 'Alcazar', 'Ambassadeur', 'Dominion', 'Prospero', 'Rameses',
etc.  There has been a lot of discussion of these tetraploids in
respect to the "umbrata" pattern lately, and I suspect that they have
a strong influence on the plicata pattern too.
> 
> Far from the expert, but just couldn't resist such an interesting
subject.
> 
> Dave





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