RE: Tetraploid Iris Pallida? PBF

A few thoughts.
It would be interesting to compare various "Dalmatica" collections and see 
how many clones in cultivation are going under that name.  It would be fun to 
have a time machine and to be able to look at the plants people were 
describing so many years ago, but alas, we can't.  It is very hard for me to 
believe that my clone bearing the name (which I'm pretty sure is the clone 
that bears the name "officially" by current standards) would produce purple 
on the leaves under any circumstance, but I'll keep watching it.  To my eyes, 
it IS pure I. pallida, through and through,  just a little larger than 
average.  Many of my other clones of "true" I. pallida are just as large, and 
most are not significantly smaller, but growing conditions could have a 
strong affect on size.  I expect very few of them are of proven known wild 
origin, but they have all of the earmarks of being Iris pallida, and I have 
no reason to doubt that is what they are.  They vary from the traditional 
light bluish purple (basically lavender) to white, and there is a group of 
them that are light reddish shade of purple (light magenta or "rose pink" 
might be names invoked for the color).  'Dogrose' and 'Thais' are good 
examples of this "rosy" coloring.  'Florentina' is very dark by I. pallida 
standards, but otherwise much like 'Dalmatica' and 'Odoratissima' (and very 
strongly grapey fragrant).  'Kupari' (another supposedly wild collected 
clone) is basically a white version of 'Odoratissima', but has a tinge of 
brown in the spathes (but then so does 'Odoratissima' - sometimes).  Some are 
plicata (some bluish, and some reddish).  'Swertii' is a bit odd, a 
well-known I. pallida plicata clone with smallish somewhat twisted flowers, 
but it really isn't that different either - and is also reputed to be, but 
not proved to be of wild origin.  All exhibit the traits of "pure" I. pallida 
in morphology, and presumably all are diploid (many have been counted as 
such, but many I suspect have never been counted).   I suspect most were 
originally grown from garden seed, but there is no evidence of other 
identifiable diploid species in their characteristics (except perhaps the 
rosy hue that some exhibit), and it is also possible that many of them were 
originally wild collected.   I'm not going to get into the origin of the 
plicata pattern debate here, but do expect that it can be found in wild I. 
pallida if people go out and look for it.
These garden plants are all fertile, except that 'Dalmatica' has no pollen.  
There are also the few assorted smaller plants that are in cultivation, but 
more delicate in all proportions and with brownish spathes; most (all? - I 
can't remember) lacking the grape fragrance.   Most of these little ones 
probably were originally field collected (???).
And, not a one of them shows any PBF in when grown in this area.
There is a little group of garden "pallidas" that are supposed to documented 
hybrids of I. pallida with a tetraploid, but morphologically they are I. 
pallida, and their chromosomes should be counted to verify their ploidy.  It 
would be interesting to see if these are diploid, triploid, or tetraploid 
(I'm betting on diploid).  There are several white ones (I don't have names 
handy, and don't remember them).  Also, Sturtevant produced some of these 
that are plicatas, including 'True Charm' (St. Clair X Oriflamme), 'Prince 
Charming' (Oriflamme X St. Clair), and 'True Delight', which I suspect are 
all siblings from one selfed 'St. Claire' seed pod, that I suspect that 
Sturtevant thought was crossed with 'Oriflamme', but that really was not.
By the way I finally found where I had seen two of these "siblings" are 
mentioned as diploids - here: 
http://www.hips-roots.com/articles/notable-gracesturt.html  The claim that 
they are diploid is not referenced, but it would be interesting to find if 
they actually have been counted as such.  If so, a tetraploid cannot be one 
of the parents.
"There were numerous other popular and/or significant introductions during 
the 1920s: ................... plus a number of diploids (Airy Dream, Dream, 
Anne Leslie, Bluet, B.Y. Morrison. Gold Imperial, Taj Mahal, True Charm, and 
True Delight)."
Chuck, I guess I'm curious how you are defining I. pallida, because it sounds 
like you are not allowing any of these garden cultivars in your definition 
(?).   I personally doubt that I. variegata had any influence on most, if any 
of these, but I could of course be wrong.  I doubt that any of these garden 
plants represent multiple generations of selections, but rather chance 
seedlings that are probably first generation (or only a few generations 
removed from wild) in the garden.  In a first or early generation 
interspecies hybrid, the influence from the other species should be much more 
evident than in these plants.  It would be quite plausible that the odd-ball 
flowers and the larger vigorous seedlings (still pure I. pallida) where kept 
and propagated.   In a few generations (or even just one) you could have 
something noticeably a bit "off" and "improved" from the wild plants.   If 
hybridization is involved (I doubt there is much hybrid influence - if any - 
myself), the various eastern TB tetraploid "species" would seem more likely 
candidates as parents, based on morphology (they are more similar to I. 
pallida), but of course they would not produce diploid offspring with I. 
pallida.   Rather, most would be dead-end triploids and a few might be 
tetraploids.  In my limited experience though, such hybrids do not express a 
grape fragrance, but rather a "rootbeer" or more traditional "bearded Iris" 
fragrance, and usually they have spathes and flowers more like the tetraploid 
parent.  There is a long history of hybridization between I. pallida and I. 
variegata, but all of the documented ones that I know (not a huge number, but 
quite a few) are easily recognized as such (even a few generations in), and 
again the smell is different (often the "Elder Iris" smell), and the spathes 
are again not pallida-like.  There are a few of these "sambucina" hybrids 
that have been called "I. pallida", but clearly they are not.
I also strongly suspect that there is a lot of diversity in the wild 
populations of I. pallida, and that only a small fraction of that is 
documented in western botanical and horticultural literature.  After all this 
is a species of moderately wide distribution that grows in a variety of 
climates and habitats.  There is a strong tendency for people growing plants 
in gardens to expect everything under a name to look exactly the same and 
"conform to type", but based on my own experience as a field botanist, I know 
that rarely is this actually the case in the field.  I suspect (???) that 
there are indeed wild populations of I. pallida that are made up of or at 
least include larger plants, and that they are probably somewhere along the 
eastern Mediterranean coast where from they have been collected and 
distributed for a long time (though not necessarily originally from within 
the Dalmatian region).  I suspect that some of the wild plants do exhibit not 
only "blue" or occasionally white flowers, but also on occasion plicata 
patterns, and "rosy pink" coloration.  The odd-balls are usually the plants 
collectors go for, and so they always appear in a disproportionate proportion 
in gardens and collections.  As a side note, wild plants showing PBF wouldn't 
surprise me too much, but much more so than larger wild plants, or flower 
color and pattern variations would.
And, regarding lack of pollen and seed variation from plant to plant.  These 
are not uncommon in wild populations of many species of wild plants.  As with 
any variation from the norm, they could be clues to an odd ancestry, but most 
often they are just individual variation.  While I don't know if it is so in 
Iris, the presence of "imperfect" pistillate plants that do not produce 
pollen within populations of mostly "perfect" monoecious plants is actually 
pretty common - something I see routinely.  It may be an adaptation that 
promotes out-crossing and reduces somewhat inbreeding within populations.  It 
may also be an adaptation that allows certain individuals to put more energy 
into seed production.  The number of full pods I've gotten over the years on 
'Dalmatica' does not indicate any degree of reduced fertility that I can see, 
though I've not really been looking for such.
OK, enough of that.
Dave

________________________________
> To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com
> From: ChatOWhitehall@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 08:25:27 -0400
> Subject: Re: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida? PBF
>
>
>
> That is correct about PBF being a variable and possibly fugitive
> characteristic. It is a trait more significant in it's presence than in
> its apparent absence.
>
> That said, as I understand it, and as Parkinson noted, I. pallida
> may show PBF; however, the clone 'Dalmatica' is not on the usually
> accepted list of irises with it.
>
> Edinger said at one time he had a whole slew of different 'Dalmatica'
> clones from diverse sources. No one is surprized, right?
>
> AMW
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chuck Chapman
> To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, Jun 5, 2011 8:24 pm
> Subject: Re: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida? PBF
>
>
> Now that I'm back home, I double checked my Dalmatica. It indeed has
> pbf. But a narrow band, at base of leaves.
>
> So another trait uncharacteristic of true species.
>
> PBF can vary quite a bit from climate to climate. It can show up in
> colder climates in same cultivars that don't show it in warmer
> climates.
>
> Chuck Chapman
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Ferguson >
> To: iris-species
> >
> Sent: Sun, Jun 5, 2011 12:21 am
> Subject: RE: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida? PBF
>
>
>
> The plant that we refer to as "Dalmatica" now, does not have any purple at 
> the
> base of the leaves. However, it would be interesting to know if it is the 
> same
> plant referred to by Parkinson, and if different, which one is the "real" 
> one.
> Dave
>
> ________________________________
> > To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com
> > From: ChatOWhitehall@aol.com
> > Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 09:41:48 -0400
> > Subject: Re: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida? PBF
> >
> >
> >
> > If we accept--and I do-- that the great English horticulturist John
> > Parkinson intended to refer to I. pallida Lam. in his Paradisi in
> > Sole... , then purple based foliage is documented in at
> > least some clones of this species as early as 1629. In the context of
> > discussing the bearded irises generally, and describing them severally,
> > he said:
> >
> >
> > "Iris Dalmatica major: The Great Dalmatian Flowerdeluce.
> >
> > The greater Flowerdeluce of Dalmatia, has his leaves as large and broad
> > as any of the Flowerdeluces whatsoever, his stalke and flower doe
> > equall his other proportion, onely the colour of the flower is
> > differing, being of a faire watchet or bleake blew colour wholly, with
> > the yellow frize or thrum down the middle of the lower or falling
> > leaves, as before is said to be common to all these sorts of
> > Flowerdeluces, in all other parts it little differeth, saving only that
> > this is observed to have a small shew of a purplish red about the
> > bottome of the greene leaves.
> >
> > Cordially,
> >
> > AMW
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Ferguson
> > To: iris-species
> > Sent: Fri, Jun 3, 2011 11:21 pm
> > Subject: RE: [iris-species] Tetraploid Iris Pallida? PBF
> >
> >
> >
> > Another two-cents worth.
> > There was an interesting comment made during this discussion that I
> > didn't comment on, but just now saw it mentioned again. Somebody
> > mentioned that I. pallida can have PBF. I just wanted to comment that
> > I have never personally - ever - seen any purple on the foliage nor on
> > the spathes or bracts of any selection of Iris pallida of any variety.
> > Not even on cultivars that many doubt are pure I. pallida (but that
> > have all the characteristics of the species).
> > On the other hand, I have seen PBF on lots of hybrids that have I.
> > pallida as one parent, with the PBF apparently always coming from the
> > other parent. Lots (if not most) hybrids that have I. variegata as the
> > other parent (or even children of these removed by a generation of two)
> > will show PBF, and some of these do resemble I. pallida somewhat.
> > Also, I realize the fact that when talking about unreduced gametes, I
> > ignored the vegetative abnormalities that can result in polyploidy
> > (still unreduced cells - but not gametes, and through various other
> > happenstances. I didn't mean to imply that I think these unimportant,
> > indeed as stated here, they are often the way that polyploids come to
> > be.
> > best wishes to all,
> > Dave Fergusoncentral NM (where I haven't seen an Iris flower for
> > several days now, and envy those of you who are still getting to enjoy
> > them).
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> 
                                          

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