Re: Re: I. pallida loppio

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There are a few inconsistencies here. At this time Iris cengialtii is considered a subspecies of Iris pallida. There is always the second subspecies that is typical. Iris pallida subspecies pallida crossed with Iris pallida subspecies cengialtii would not be a hybrid in the sense that they are both the same species. It would be a hybrid between subspecies. But the term Intraspecific (within the species) and Interspecific ( between species)  becomes confusing here in that today we consider these one species, but at different times they were considered distinct species. So depending on the author and the time frame this cross maybe considered as Inter or Intra specific. But most authors today would call this a intraspecific cross.

 

Since it was reported that ‘Loppio’ crossed with itself, produced plants with various shades of blue, there is no reason to assume that a dark pallida would produce predominantly dark seedlings. Generally the pathway for purple in aphylla tends to dominate, but the fact that ‘Loppio’ as a dark purple and produced many shades would be further evidence that aphylla was not involved in its background.  The most distinguishing character difference between subspecies cengialti and subspecies pallida appears to be height. Other characters vary within the two subspecies to a similar degree so the only real intermediate trait would be height.

irischapman@netscape.net wrote:

Do you know the parentage of your dark pallida plants? Are they collected clones? As without this information it would be difficult to know the source of their pigment. When we are looking at the source of a particular gene which is not common in a species (dark purple in this case) we have to be very precise in evaluating the data. deBure planted seeds from I squalens, and Iris plicata and got pallida and variegata plants (amoung many others). We would not be wanting to get one of these clones and be calling it by a species name or identifying any of its genes as having a specific species origin when it had such a garden origin.

If Loppio was a pure cengialtii type it would produce seedlings intermediate between pallida and cengialtii in a cross with a regular pallida. As the dark pigment of Loppio would likely be dominant (based on the fact that in all other situations with this dark purple) then all the seedlings would have this dark purple. Otherwise the colour would be intermediate between these two colours and all very much alike with minor variations. But not the "considerable variation" that Dykes describes. If any cross produces such wide variation then it has to have a varied genetic background. It could be a species hybrid or an intra species hybrid ( that is pallida x cengialtii)
but not a homogenetic species cultivar.

Chuck Chapman



"David Ferguson" wrote:

>I have interpreted the following quote to mean that Dykes did not consider 'Loppio' as worthy of distinction nor botanical recognition from other "var. cengialtii", which implies strongly that at least Dykes didn't consider it to be of hybrid origin, but merely just another plant of the same thing. I have not read much of Foster's writing, but I have never seen any indication that anybody considered 'Loppio' to be a hybrid, except for the published parentage in the AIS checklist (although it certainly could be a hybrid - but I doubt it - it certainly doesn't show any obvious leanings toward I. aphylla in morphology). My impression of var. cengialtii is based on few clones, but my clones are all much darker than is normal for I. pallida. 'Loppio' is the darkest (not by much) and the least blue (more purple, leaning to the red side a bit more).
>
>While I am not entirely clear on the point, it seems that the seedlings referred to are seedlings from 'Loppio', which implies that it is fertile, producing viable offspring, that also do not differ from the norm for var. cengialtii.
>
>Of course some of this is based on the assumption that we are still growing the same 'Loppio' that Foster and Dykes saw (it seems reasonable to assume that we are).
>
>I also wonder about the last comment below. I can't think of any statement that Dykes made (that I've seen) that implies that he considered "a lot of pallida clones" to be natural hybrids. He did go into a lot of discussion about apparent origins of various supposed I. pallida x I. variegata hybrids. He did leave a bit of a margin for error in his statements about plicata type pallida in stating at least once that they might be hybrids or I. pallida. He fell just short of stating that they are wild I. pallida, but did state that they are I. pallida in their characters, and a couple of times referring to them as I. pallida.
>
>Dave
>
> "The Loppio variety of I. Cengialti was collected by Foster on Monte
> Baldo near the Lago di Loppio and differs from the type in its foliage
> which in the early stages tends to be of a bluish green by contrast
> with the somewhat yellow-green of I. Cengialti. It also flowers later
> and has darker, and less blue-, purple flowers and the purple line at
> the base of the spathes is also more marked.
> Cultivation is easy in a sunny well-drained position in a soil that
> is not deficient in lime. Seedlings show in
> color and it is for this reason that the claim of the Loppio form to a
> varietal name is at least doubtful."
>
>
> Dykes also suspected that a lot of pallida clones in Italy were
> natural hybrids.
>

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