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Re: Iris savannarum


 

Regarding Small's work with Opuntias.  Some Opuntias are appomictic, producing seeds asexually.  When plants don't intercross at all, how does one divide into species?  That is a problem taxonomists have and I guess will always have.
Walter



From: "'Robert Pries ' robertpries@embarqmail.com [iris-species]" <iris-species@yahoogroups.com>
To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: [iris-species] Iris savannarum

 
David: thank you so much for the information about Small I did not know about the Opuntias. I agree with your assessment of how species get accepted. One can see changes occurring right now in Iris. The World checklist put out by Kew has been becoming more and more a splitter when before it was mostly a lumper. I don't really care anymore what rank names have. For me the important thing is having a name to account for each variation. While intellectually interesting to understand the evolution, I worry more about loosing track of the diversity when we lump. We will not maintain the diversity that is out there if we loose track of the fact it exists.


From: "David Ferguson manzano57@msn.com [iris-species]" <iris-species@yahoogroups.com>
To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 1:51:00 PM
Subject: Re: [iris-species] Iris savannarum

 
A side note regarding Small.  The comments regarding his Iris species are interesting.  I have been aware of his Iris names but have never really looked closely at the situation myself.  However, Small also named a number of species in lots of other groups of plants, and similar situations are not limited to Iris.  He named a number of new "species" of cactus (nearly all Opuntia), which were largely looked upon as nonsensical by other botanists of his day, and ignored.  This is a very similar situation to the Iris, and added to the tendency for Small's publications to be ignored.  It is interesting to note, that with these species as well, many of them have since turned out to be real entities, at least as subspecies, and the problem was not with Small's attention to detail (perhaps over-attention?), but with other people who didn't care about Opuntia not allowing themselves to see, or often actively ignoring the distinctions that Small was seeing, and rather dismissing the names without even knowing the plants they were given to.  Not all of Small's published Opuntia species are really distinct, some are just local populations or individual variants, and some had names already that Small was apparently unaware of (for instance, some were named from islands in the Antilles before Small named them from Florida).  There is still more to learn about these, since some of these populations are localized to small areas, of little interest to most botanists, and have not been properly studied as living plants (some may even be extinct, and now available for study only as a few old dried herbarium sheets?), and there is still a tendency for most botanists to follow the old "establishment" and to lump everything Opuntia into a relatively few "garbage can" species names where there really should be many.  However, it seems that to a large degree, in retrospect, Small's attention to distinctions is being vindicated.

As for who decides what is a species and what is not, and ignoring the fact that everyone has their own take on what a "species" should be - often it is political - who's opinion is presented in the right place, in the right forum, at the right time to be noticed and accepted, or who presents the best sounding argument.  If one has an established reputation, they are often more likely to be listened to than if not.  It tends to be acceptance by concensus, not a decision by some authority.  Often it has little to do with real population biology [which in itself can be easily interpreted differently by different people in different ways too].  However, every person who looks at a group and presents their observations adds to the knowledge of that group, and the understanding of our wild populations of living things gets better all the time.  For those who think we know all there is to know - - - wrong;  we have barely scratched the surface.  And, just to keep things even more interesting, living populations are always adapting and changing, even as we study them.

Dave Ferguson
Albuquerque



From: iris-species@yahoogroups.com <iris-species@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Robert Pries ' robertpries@embarqmail.com [iris-species] <iris-species@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 7:02 AM
To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [iris-species] Iris savannarum
 
 
Patrick: I am taking a risk at responding because I have not seen all the posts relating to this thread, but I can give some incite as to who decides what is a species. When I was working on my phd I worked with Taxonomists and Ecologists because I had not quite made up my mind as to which I would choose to call myself and for that matter my major professor was also both. At the time I was not concentrating on Iris but I can tell you a bit as to how the system works.
 
Taxonomists are somewhat like lawyers you ask two of them for their opinions and you get three answers. Generally for years up until very recently the practice of authoritarianism occurred. In other words the identification is what an authority in the field says it is. But authorities do not all agree. Generally most other taxonomist look at the amount of research that an investigator has done on the subject and decide whether they would trust their judgement. Iris have been a particularly knotty problem. John Kunkel Small was a beloved and renowned taxonomist and highly respected for his Flora of the Eastern United States, but when he described 50+ additional species of Louisiana Irises based on the hybrids he saw during a train trip across the South his reputation plummeted among taxonomists. Percy Viosco later proved their hybrid origin and most taxonomists threw out all or almost all the Small names. But another taxonomist later did an intense study of the Irises of Florida and proposed the resurrection of 10 species including savannarum and hexagona. But the cloud of Small's work hung over this group and many taxonomist with just a passing knowledge of these irises were reluctant to bring back any of the old names even though Viosca noted that he had only looked into the names of Irises in Louisiana not Florida. Henderson I think tried to play it safe and with limited evidence only resurrected savannarum in the Flora of North America.
 
Today taxonomists who now prefer to be called systematists use new tools that are supposed to reduce the subjectivity of their opinions. By using computers they can choose according to the data they put in, the most parsimonious explanation and suggest the reality of a species or whether it is not an end line in the tree of evolution. Using new tools Meerow has come close to proving the reality of hexagona as a separate species. From what I have seen I would agree and suspect that at least some of the Florida names should be valid. Criteria for what constitutes a separate species has continued to become more rigorous but their will always be and element of judgement involved. I believe Randolph proved the value of separating Iris nelsoni as a separate species but some less informed or less venturous taxonomists may hold different opinions. After all the loss of credibility of Small still looms over Irises even 80 years later. 


From: "'Patrick O'Connor' pfoconnor@cox.net [iris-species]" <iris-species@yahoogroups.com>
To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 7:48:42 AM
Subject: RE: [iris-species] Iris savannarum

 
Sean,
 
Thanks for the response.  The picture looks more like what I think of as I. hexagona as opposed to I. savannarum.
 
I noticed that the Flora of North America recognizes savannarum as a species, and that makes sense to me.  We have a hexagona from South Carolina that blooms with brevicaulis and is very different than what I have seen of savannarum.  I think that perhaps the more northerly East Coast irises are hexagonas and that savannarum occurs further south.
 
I do wonder, by what authority the Flora of North America separated savannarum?  Other authorities don’t recognize it.  How are such decisions made?  Scientific articles such as those by Arnold lump everything except brevicaulis, fulva and (maybe) nelsonii into the  hexagona bucket.  In Louisiana, we wonder about the relationship of I. giganticaerulea to the East Coast irises.  I understand that what constitutes a species follows manmade rules, but I can’t see that giganticaerulea is just a form of hexagona.  It may be closely related (or the same as) I. savannarum, however.  By the way, a few days ago, I visited a field about 20 miles from New Orleans that had so many giganticaeruleas you almost could not avoid stepping on them as you walked.  It is amazing to see them in such a mass.
 
The Flora does not recognize I. nelsonii as a species.  I thought it was settled that nelsonii was a species, so by what authority would the Flora demote it?  Nelsonii surely was derived from fulva, but the small niche it lives in would not be hospitable to fulvas.  Nelsoniis are found in more shade and constant water.  If a fulva were planted back in a swamp with nelsoniis, it would not survive.
 
I keep hoping some scientific research will straighten out the Series Hexagonae.   And that I will understand the report when it is published.
 
Patrick
From: iris-species@yahoogroups.com [mailto:iris-species@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 9:13 PM
To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [iris-species] Iris savannarum
 
 
Patrick, I collected an iris from Dixie County, Florida that had no sign of flower stalks the first week of April, clearly blooming much later than savannarum in its native habitat. Here in Michigan it bloomed the first week of July, two or three weeks later than other Hexagonae (except possibly brevicaulis).
 
I donated some seed to SIGNA (14LA050 hexagona var. hexagona), basing my ID on the description of hexagona in Flora of North America (which seperates savannarum as a species, rather than a variety). I'm curious to know if anyone successfully grew any. My parent plant was eaten by rodents during the polar vortex, but I have one seedling.
 
Photos of the plant in question:
 
Sean Z
Zone 6a
SE Michigan
 
 
 
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 8:33 AM, 'Patrick O'Connor' p*@cox.net [iris-species] <i*@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
Mark,
 
Thanks for that information.  I should have also asked….what county are these irises in?
 
I am involved in the Society for Louisiana Irises Species Preservation Project, and we have an irises obtained from Brevard County that is about to bloom.  It is growing in a large pot and the pot is sitting in pool with 3-4 inches of water.  There is only one bloom stalk, but it is five feet tall.  The donor gave it as I. savannarum, but some people consider all the East Coast irises in the Series Hexagonae to be I. hexagona.  I feel that I. savannarum in fact is closely related to what we call I. giganticaerulea, and that there are other Florida natives that in fact are I. hexagona.  They do not grow five feet tall and do not bloom as early.  I. giganticaerulea will often reach five feet in its native habitat, and it is an early  bloomer.
 
In case you are interested in the Louisiana Iris Species Preservation Project, you can check it out here:  http://www.louisianairisgnois.com/SpeciesPreservation/
 
Patrick
From: i*@yahoogroups.com [mailto:i*@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 9:36 PM
To: i*@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [iris-species] Iris savannarum
 
 
Patrick,
     They are over four feet tall, not far from five.  But, they are growing right at the edge of an Alligator pond...   I had not been monitoring the clump, but I would estimate it has been blooming a good ten days.
Mark A. Cook 
 
On 3/21/2017 8:25 PM, 'Patrick O'Connor' p*@cox.net [iris-species] wrote:
Mark,
 
Two questions.  How tall would you say these irises are?  And, on approximately what date would you say the first bloom occurred?
 
Patrick
 
 
 
-- 
Mark A. Cook
USDA Zone 8b
Dunnellon, Florida USA
 



--
Bob Pries
Zone 7a
Roxboro, NC
(336)597-8805



--
Bob Pries
Zone 7a
Roxboro, NC
(336)597-8805




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