Re: Re: SPEC-X

 

Thanks for your input into this tricky topic. 

How to draw the line here is differerent for a number of people. There now are a number of the small flowered TBs. So the question is when do they stop being a SPEC-X .Second generation, third generation? All TB are basicly SPEC-X . But how many generations back do we go?  Paul Black lists Dolce  in his catalogue as a TB, not as a species cross. And it does have other "small flowered TB's" to compete against. And you can get some of these small flowered TBs  from TB X TB cross. I know as I have done so, so i is not a special  species X TB effect.

A couple of years ago I introduced Iced Up, as an MTB, even though it was a species , (I. variagatea reginea x MTB). It fit MTB class and did not have any special species contribution, other then it's colour pattern.  It fit well in the MTB class, but to give it an advantage in awards system I could have entered irt as a SPEC-X.  but put it where I thought it best fitted.

The discussion here does suggest need for  clearer definition.

But I still think that  for a judge to vote for a top class award they should be able to evaluate at least two of the candidates on list, and not vote on only having one in the class.

Chuck Chapman


-----Original Message-----
From: JamieV. <jamievande@freenet.de>
To: iris-species@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 25, 2010 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: [iris-species] Re: SPEC-X

 
Chuck, et al,

I've been following this diversifying theme and find the various points of view interesting.  I will preface this by saying I am a non-award oriented hybridizer.  In my eyes, awards are merely a tool to get people involved.  Some people need the physical reward to fuel their work and many gardeners do enjoy showing their plants.  Fine.  Not really my thing,  but I understand the purpose that should be herein embodied.

I was very taken with the cultivar Dolce and considered ordering it from the States, but things were getting too expensive.  So be it, but the actual cultivar is for my eyes a species-X, simply as it doesn't fit into any of the other classes, unless you want it to be forgotten!  Although it has aphylla only as a grandparent (grandchild of the species!  It is still the species, even if a selection, which, quite frankly, all introed plants are.  Species or hybrid.  No need to denegrate its parentage.), the plant clearly shows many species-like qualities.  It is really a gardenable plant, rather than a complex hybrid of questionable garden worth.  As such, it shouldn't be awarded in the same class as TB/MBI/SDB hybrids.  That's like judging a raw coffee bean against a cappuncino.  Not to be compared, yet one is dependant on the other.

As far a limiting where species-X starts and stops, I think we would then be argumenting against the spirit of such a class.  It is a niche.  Many primitive hybrids will fall well within this class, even though it will be like judging apples against oranges.  (is this tooo many metaphors?)  Maybe we need a species-X pogon, species-X apogon split?  The two groups are really like seperate genera and from the hybridizing point have diverged quite differently from the original species.  Pogon iris are simply better represented and have a much more robust hybridising history.  Under the apogon species, we do have awards for relatively primitive hybrids, as they have not yet been taken as far.  If I was to choose between the two groups, I would find that the pogon iris are more in need of a species-X category than their beardless relatives.  We do tend to see the apogons through different eyes, as well.  We treasure their simpler shapes, gracefull contenence and sharper colouring.  Things that have been largely lost in the complex beardies.  Their required judging criteria are much more open to fantasy than the pogons.

just my 5 pennies  (the cent sign has long disappeared from German keyboards!  the rest is inflation)

Ciao,

Jamie V.
Cologne



Am 25.11.2010 20:35, schrieb Chuck Chapman:
The definition of the class may need a bit of work.   Here is the registration data for Dolce

DOLCE
(Paul Black, R. 2002) Sdlg. I290C. SPEC-X, 34" (86 cm), EM
S. and style arms pastel pink; F. pinkish ivory, narrow pale pink band; beards medium tangerine; small-flowered; slight spicy fragrance. F175BB: (Northern Jewel x 91196A: (8864B: ((Navy Waves x Bride's Halo) x sib) x C. Palmer aphylla sdlg.)) X B194C: (Abridged Version x 91135D: ((Centerfold x Wings of Dreams) x Birthday Gift)). Mid-America 2003. HM 2005, AM 2007, Ran-P 2009.

In this cross  you  have aphylla as a grandparent, and even then it is a selected seedling. So great grandchild of a species.  I would think there is some argument for excluding this sort of cultivar from  SPEC-X.

Perhaps next revision of AIS rules will adress this concern. But the people voting this class did have their say.

But there is the possibility that the people voting only class only had this example od SPEC-X in their garden

Perhaps Judges voting for a class should have enough experience, growing and viewing, so when they vote for best of class, are choosing between at least two  elegiable cultivars. Not voting for the only one they are familar with. This should be for all top awards, as far as I'm concerned


Chuyck Chapman


-----Original Message-----
From: Sean A. Zera z*@umich.edu
To: iris-species i*@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 24, 2010 2:59 pm
Subject: RE: [iris-species] Re: SPEC-X

 
I, too, have never paid much attention to AIS because of the apparent
focus on bearded hybrids, but after a bit of reading up, the whole
system seems pretty strange. Correct me if I'm wrong, but:

There are 15 classifications that receive medals, plus the Dykes
medal. Of these, eight are restricted to beardeds and another two
allow beardeds, so fully 2/3 of the categories can be won by beardeds.
Three medals are awarded in the TB category, so of the 18 medals
awarded annually, 3/4 can and do go to beardeds.

The highest award, the Dykes, though open to all classes, is in
practice awarded only to beardeds and almost exclusively to Tall
Beardeds, which is downright insulting to everyone else, unless I'm
missing something here.

Certain arilbred hybrids could potentially be entered as TB, AB or
SPEC-X, and stand a chance to win the Dykes, while hybrids in entire
other subgenera can only be entered in SPEC-X and will never win Dykes.

The SPEC-X classification is the only one open to anyone hybridizing
Chinensis, Ensatae, Foetidissimae, Laevigatae (except JI),
Longipetalae, Nepalensis, Prismaticae, Ruthenicae, Syriacae,
Tenuifoliae, Tripetalae, Unguiculares, Vernae, cresteds, reticulatas,
xiphiums, junos, Belamcanda, Pardanthopsis, wide crosses and whatever
else I've missed. Yet 'Dolce', which for all intents and purposes
appears to be a TB, wins. I understand the overwhelming focus of AIS
on beardeds as an artifact of the history of iris hybridizing, but it
would seem that the organization has little interest in changing this.

My take on SPEC-X, as the classes stand now, would be to voluntarily
restrict it to wide crosses (except between two bearded groups) and
beardless hybrids that don't fit an existing classification. Wild-type
bearded hybrids, as unlikely as they appear to be to win existing
bearded classes, at least qualify for them. Entering beardeds into the
only category many beardless can enter, being judged by an
organization that prefers beardeds, unfairly reduces the already
limited chances of a new and different hybrid winning.

Sean Z
Michigan


--  Jamie V.  _______________________  KÃln (Cologne) Germany Zone 8

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