Re: Re: SPEC-X

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Tom, (et al.),

you have made two very important points, IMO. (below quoted). 

Am 29.11.2010 04:02, schrieb Tom Waters:

* Bearded iris hybridizers, for the most part, are not interested in species or in breeding things that people will associate with species. A TB or SDB AM is more meaningful and valuable to these breeders than a SPEC-X AM would be.

The category of species-X is a borderline group of hybridizing directions, in other words, work that does not fit under the general classes as they are now defined and represented.  If I was looking for a SBD, I would not consider a species-X registration, yet, I found Dolce through this designation, as I was looking for aphylla hybrids that I could further use with aril breds and arils.  The key for myself in Dolce was the colour, most aphyllas are darker and in the purple/anthocyanin range, plus the branching with smaller blossoms, which is a clear aphylla trait.  The actual genetics behind the hybrid were important, as I could be confident that, of the 48 chromosomes, at least12 were aphylla.  In my eyes, the species-X designation had done its work.  To be honest, if the aphylla genetics were further back in the geneology, I doubt I would have had any interest and, yes, I would have wondered why it was considered species-x.

Am 29.11.2010 04:02, schrieb Tom Waters:

* A precedent has been established for SPEC-X as the "natural territory" for inter-series or inter-species beardless hybrids. The discomfort with 'Dolce' winning the R-P Award is a legitimate _expression_ of this intuitive sense of what the class is most naturally focused upon. There will be push-back if bearded irises that fit comfortably into existing classes start to crowd in on this class.

As to this class, species-X being a beardless class, I find that simply prejudiced.  Bearded species are still very valid for hybridizing and should not be relegated to the back shelf simply due to a predominance of hi-bred beardeds in commerce which are well represented in other categories.  That many actually seperate the arils from beardeds is puzzling to me.  The species often have 6 beards!  How can one even think of them as non-bearded?  This only reflect a backlash predjudice on the non-TB fans.  Not very enlightened in my eyes.

One of the biggest problems I see with defining a species-X category and MAINTAINING it is the actual lack of hybrids produced and introduced.  All of us that work with apogon iris know of the disparate chromosome counts found in these sub-families.  Producing any hybrids is quite difficult.  Tomas Tamberg has spent many years producing the few that he has registered.  It is a hard road full of dead ends.  Eventhough the eupogon iris went through a similar period, it was nothing compared to the genetic incompatibility of the apogons.  That efforts have come as far as they have, with the much smaller caommercial market and growing import/export boarders between nations, says a great deal about those involved.  Passion is a powerful tool.  I find one of the greatest hinderances today is the difficulty of sharing ones product.  I have not yet registered a hybrid of either Iris of Hemerocallis, even though i have produced quite a few good plants, but the market is too small in Europe to warrant the effort and costs involved (not only for registration ,but for increasing and selling the plants).  I'm not so much moaning about the situation, simply noting that it influences not only the market, but the consiousness of the public, even the dyed in the wool hybridizer, as to what is going on.  I find this trend is reflected in the already dificult to change policies of various plant societies.  Beleive me when I say, this is nothing new or unique.  Historically, it has been a battle to make any changes in a plant of animal society.

Am 29.11.2010 04:02, schrieb Tom Waters:

I confess I was not entirely naive in launching this discussion. I figured 'Dolce' would come up, and so would the whole bearded/beardless schism. Although I have expressed my agreement with Bob's understanding of the *definition* of the class, I think the question of what judges should applaud when looking at this class remains an open question. The conversation we've been having here is important in that context. I think in time we will come to a more shared understanding of what SPEC-X cultivars deserve our highest recognition and encouragement. I see the R-P Award for 'Dolce' as a boundary-testing event that will help build a future consensus.

Regards, Tom

I must say that I am learning and enjoying this dicsussion.  Getting a better feel for other's opinions and directions has really broadened the landscape.  The disillusion some have suffered via the species-X would not have been discussed to such length otherwise.  I would think it may need to be redefined much as the aril awards, using percentages of species in the plants make-up.  Less than 25% pure species genes is, for me, a good benchmark for not belonging, but this may prove unworkable as some complexer habrids are based on only 4 species!  Also, I'm sure we will find exceptions that fall theough all nets.  Of course, there are plants that should not be eligible, as there are already award categories for them, such as the siberica, spuria, louisiana, PCN and ensata hybrids.  That said, at some point in the future, development in these groups will be so far from the natural forms that, again, many good hybrids will be unable to compete.

The bottom line is that award systems are related to current fashion.  This is a river that will have its ebbs and flows, as always, and we must learn to recognise the winds of change, as well as things of intrinsic worth and beauty.  Even those of us seeking the wide-cross hybrids and the excitement of their newness are only following a current fashion, one that someday will become common place and loose its attraction for some, while gaining attention from others.  So is it in the real world, being such fickle creatures as we are..

-- 
Jamie V.

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Köln (Cologne)
Germany
Zone 8