Re: RE: genetics behind glaciata, plicata etc.

Sort of twisting the subject here, but Tom you wrote:

"I do have hybrids of 'Kupari' with Iris cengialtii (pallida spp.
cengialtii) also and
speaking of white pallida's, maybe from these I can get a white F2 of my
own."

This brought to mind another idea (not a new one) that I've thought about
pursuing.  Back when tetraploids were just starting to be developed in the
TB Iris world, there was a quest for a yellow I. pallida type that would do
well in climates like s. California.  If I remember correctly this was
mainly a Sturtevant project, but Cayeux got involved too.  'Hope',
'Shekinah', and 'Pluie d'Or' were supposed to be getting close; however,
I've only seen photos of two of them so far, and haven't flowered them.
Based on the photos of 'Shekinah' and 'PIuie d'Or', they still show
characters from I. variegata.  I might add that 'Shekinah' and 'Pluie d'Or'
have not been very easy to get going in NM either.  They seem heat and rot
sensitive.

So, to the point.  I would love to develop a pure yellow that looks and
smells like a pure I. pallida of the larger sort.  I suppose it is just a
matter of making enough crosses for long enough, but it would be nice to be
able to plan out the likely genetics involved before hand.  I know the
result probably wouldn't be a big seller, but I think it would be "cool" to
have anyway.  I bed of tall I. pallida cultivars in full flower is
something pretty special, with a delicate grace the tetraploids lack.  Plus
the aroma is out of this world.  Adding a bright light yellow flare here
and there, that actually fits in, would be interesting in such a bed.

I would like to know more about Glaciata genetics, and need to dig a bit
further into the literature and old chat group posts, but is 'Kupari' a
"dominant" white, and does it carry genes for expressing anthocyanin?  From
what little I've seen and put together so far it seems both might be true.
Or, does it behave as a recessive white with no ability to pass on genes
for anthocyanin expression?  I realize it may not be quite that simple.
The logical follow-up for this deals with the cultivars like 'Shekinah' and
'Pluie d'Or' that have already selected for characters of I. pallida, since
they would be logical choices to pursue the goal further.  Does anyone know
if they are glaciata, and does anyone know if they have the I. pallida
grape fragrance?  I'm wondering if both the white and the yellow are
glaciata, if this might potentially allow the yellow to be strengthened
without too much worry about eliminating the genetics for anthocyanin
expression.  If the white and/or yellow are recessive, the questions are
different than if they are dominant.  I would ask the same about my small
white I. pallida (I'm pretty sure it's a glaciata) - if I knew which
cultivar it is - because it is very heat and drought tolerant, and doesn't
rot so easily as the 'Kupari' plants I've gotten so far.  However, there
are problems with this,  the flower is rather small (would rather start
larger), and there is little fragrance.  I understand 'Kupari' doesn't have
much of the grape smell either?  I hate to fold any dark ones into the
breeding, but the best sweet smellers I know of are "blue", with the best
of the best ('Floridor') being the darkest of all.  There are some plicatas
that have a good strong sweet smell too, but they don't have very good
flower form (small with curled under falls).  They are pretty, but that's
not the look I'm after.

Some yellow diploids such as 'Joyance', 'G.P.Baker', and 'Flavescens' seem
to have a strong presence of I. pallida already as well, but they are not
very yellow and have strong anthocyanin expression (something akin to
plicata?), and to my nose they stink.  They seem like a step in the wrong
direction.  There are other bright yellow diploids, but all I've seen favor
I. variegata or other species strongly.   Lots to work with out there, but
the ones that are already closest seem like good places to start.

I do know of possibly another white pallida in a collection in Albuquerque.
I don't know the cultivar, but it might be 'Kupari'.  The flowers are
larger than mine, and a bit fuller with a hint of ruffling, the plant is
more robust, but no taller.  It has a brownish tinge to the spathes (so
does mine, but less so).  There was a lot of debate as to whether it is
really I. pallida because of the somewhat brownish spathes, but I have no
doubt whatsoever that it is.  Does it sound like 'Kupari'?  Don't remember
the fragrance of that one, I saw it two years ago.  They had a big row of
it; hope they still have it!

Maybe I need to work on a line of white I. pallidas, and pick the best
before introducing the yellow?

I could probably do better with some bright yellow tetraploids, but I'd
like to keep it diploid and as true to I. pallida as possible.  Perhaps a
little I. imbricata would add something interesting to the mix?  It seems a
bit more like I. pallida to start with.

As an aside, but still on the glaciata vein.  I have plants of I. aphylla
'Ostry White'.  I need to look back at my photos, but I recall a great deal
of purple in the flowers and in the spathes.  The stronger the heat and
sun, the more extensive the purple expression.  In the shade, there is
almost none.  As I recall it is mostly a smear of color in the basal
portions of the flower, and not veining.  This is supposed to be a glaciata
- yes?  Or, does it just carry glaciata genes?

Well that's enough of that for the moment.

Dave

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