Re: Re: REB: cycle vs 'summer' genes
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re: REB: cycle vs 'summer' genes
  • From: &* W* <i*@telp.com>
  • Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 19:46:31 -0700
Thanks for this explanation, Chuck. The categorizing of rebloomers has 
progressed some since I was last involved in irises (10-15 years ago). Very 
informative. Can you explain more the difference between "direct 
rebloomers" (#1) and "whenever rebloomers" (#5)?

Tom



Tom Waters   

Telperion Oasis ~ www.telp.com/irises    

Cuyamungue, New Mexico, USA (zone 5/6)  

-------- Original Message --------
> From: "Chuck Chapman" <irischapman@aim.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 9:41 AM
> To: iris@hort.net
> Subject: Re: [iris] Re: REB: cycle vs 'summer' genes
> 
> Plants have to be mature before they can respond to bud set 
> temperatures.  So a big clump at various stages of maturity has no 
> relevance. Only relevant factor is number of fans at maturity at time 
> of bud set temperatures. Only mature fans are affected by bud set 
> temperatures. Can be only fan in clump. Other fans can reach maturity 
> and have bud set later in growing season.
> 
> After bud set, then bloom is under control of type of  flowering 
> trigger it needs.
> 1) Direct rebloomers (ie: summer bloomers) like Immortality send up 
> flower stalk immediately after bud set
> 2) Fall cyclic send up flower stalks  somewhat later (perhaps a few 
> months later, actual trigger is not clear)
> 3) Long season (preferential vernalization  plants)  send up flower 
> stalks after about 5 months of growth conditions after bud set
> 4) Oncers only after vernalization
> 5) Whenever rebloomers  bloom whenever  fans reach maturity.
> 
> To know when  plants are mature  need to know what mature leaf count 
> is. Otherwise make careful observations and make note of when main fan 
> stops growing and new increases start to grow.
> 
> To know when bud set temperatures occur you need to keep  records of 
> min/max temperatures in your own garden. Or make notes of when the new 
> increases for that cultivar stat to grow. Then write this date down and 
> make another note when plant blooms. Three weeks (approximately, and 
> for TB) before bloom is when plant initiated growth of  flower stalk, 
> and when it received bloom (not bud set)  growth trigger. This data 
> will tell you what type of rebloomer that plant is.
> 
> 
> Chuck Chapman
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net.com>
> To: iris <iris@hort.net>
> Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 9:15 am
> Subject: Re: [iris] Re: REB: cycle vs 'summer' genes
> 
> And because it isn't clear, I tend to be skeptical about all
> explanations.  mea culpa.
> 
> The latter explanation could apply - even tho one of the cycle 
> seedlings
> doesn't make a rampant patch of fans trying to take over the garden 
> like
> some of the sibs do, it may be increasing/growing fast, but not as
> disease resistant as some of the sibs.  2 steps forward, 1 1/2 back.
> 
> And is appealing as a 'simpler' explanation. But (presumably) with fans
> in all stages of maturity, wouldn't spring bloom tend to be spread out
> or vary from year to year?  Doesn't seem to happen, tho fall bloom
> doesn't always occur in these two.  Heavy in the good grower when it
> does, but sometimes (i.e., this year) none.  And it did not fall bloom
> for the Spoons.
> 
> On the other hand, IMM seems to be odd here compared to the other
> rebloomers I've tried to use for breeding, I keep wondering if it's
> operating with a fully 'balanced' set of chromosomes.  It may just be
> the chronic poor growing conditions here (weather), but seed set and
> (esp) germination seems low in the majority of IMM crosses, & it's
> anthers are definitely more sensitive to weather than, for example, 
> HoM,
> MATRIX, RENOWN, VIOLET MIRACLE, TEA LEAVES.
> 
> CSONG seeds were an exception.  So was CHINA MOON (2010 cross, so too
> soon to say if any of those will rebloom - one maiden fall bloom this
> year) cross.  Guess I should look up the numbers before saying
> germination is lower for sure, but that's my impression.  Simplest
> explanation may be it's just not happy enough here to produce a lot of
> viable seeds.
> 
> Abundant seed 2011 in backcrosses with CSONG children (just to see if
> that works well to recapture rebloom - not expecting much in the way of
> looks).
> 
> On 12/4/2011 3:38 PM, Chuck Chapman wrote:
> > What you have with Immortality X Celebration song is not clear. Could 
> be
> > a gene recombination of the two genes needed for FC rebloom. That is
> > absence of vernalization genes plus absence of daylight dormancy gene.
> > Combined, one from one parent , other from other parent. FB X
> > Celebration Song = all oncers, but strong growth. Or could be  
> extended
> > season rebloom. That is  plant reaches maturity early and then has 
> five
> > months of growth, triggering "false Spring" trigger.
> 
> Always appreciate your thoughts on these (apparent) mysteries, Chuck.
> 
> Linda Mann east TN USA zone 7
> 
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