] Re: REB: cycle vs 'summer' genes
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: ] Re: REB: cycle vs 'summer' genes
  • From: C* C* <i*@aim.com>
  • Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 23:35:09 -0500 (EST)
Whenever rebloomer s is currently a very restricted class. It involves Forever Blue and it's children Autumn Jester, Blueberry Tart, Summer Recall, Forever Violet and Wizard of Hope.
They start their rebloom as early as 8 days after they finish spring bloom, and rebloom until killing frost. they rebloom regularly up to zone 3. Don't seem to need a bud set trigger. Can have three to four generations in a growing season. 

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Waters <irises@telp.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 9:52 pm
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: REB: cycle vs 'summer' genes

Thanks for this explanation, Chuck. The categorizing of rebloomers has
progressed some since I was last involved in irises (10-15 years ago). Very 
informative. Can you explain more the difference between "direct
rebloomers" (#1) and "whenever rebloomers" (#5)?

Tom



Tom Waters

Telperion Oasis ~ www.telp.com/irises

Cuyamungue, New Mexico, USA (zone 5/6)

-------- Original Message --------

From: "Chuck Chapman" <irischapman@aim.com>
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 9:41 AM
To: iris@hort.net
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: REB: cycle vs 'summer' genes

Plants have to be mature before they can respond to bud set
temperatures.  So a big clump at various stages of maturity has no
relevance. Only relevant factor is number of fans at maturity at time
of bud set temperatures. Only mature fans are affected by bud set
temperatures. Can be only fan in clump. Other fans can reach maturity
and have bud set later in growing season.

After bud set, then bloom is under control of type of  flowering
trigger it needs.
1) Direct rebloomers (ie: summer bloomers) like Immortality send up
flower stalk immediately after bud set
2) Fall cyclic send up flower stalks  somewhat later (perhaps a few
months later, actual trigger is not clear)
3) Long season (preferential vernalization  plants)  send up flower
stalks after about 5 months of growth conditions after bud set
4) Oncers only after vernalization
5) Whenever rebloomers  bloom whenever  fans reach maturity.

To know when  plants are mature  need to know what mature leaf count
is. Otherwise make careful observations and make note of when main 
fan

stops growing and new increases start to grow.

To know when bud set temperatures occur you need to keep  records of
min/max temperatures in your own garden. Or make notes of when the 
new
increases for that cultivar stat to grow. Then write this date down 
and

make another note when plant blooms. Three weeks (approximately, and
for TB) before bloom is when plant initiated growth of  flower stalk,
and when it received bloom (not bud set)  growth trigger. This data
will tell you what type of rebloomer that plant is.


Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Mann <lmann@lock-net.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 9:15 am
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: REB: cycle vs 'summer' genes

And because it isn't clear, I tend to be skeptical about all
explanations.  mea culpa.

The latter explanation could apply - even tho one of the cycle
seedlings
doesn't make a rampant patch of fans trying to take over the garden
like
some of the sibs do, it may be increasing/growing fast, but not as
disease resistant as some of the sibs.  2 steps forward, 1 1/2 back.
And is appealing as a 'simpler' explanation. But (presumably) with 
fans

in all stages of maturity, wouldn't spring bloom tend to be spread out
or vary from year to year?  Doesn't seem to happen, tho fall bloom
doesn't always occur in these two.  Heavy in the good grower when it
does, but sometimes (i.e., this year) none.  And it did not fall bloom
for the Spoons.

On the other hand, IMM seems to be odd here compared to the other
rebloomers I've tried to use for breeding, I keep wondering if it's
operating with a fully 'balanced' set of chromosomes.  It may just be
the chronic poor growing conditions here (weather), but seed set and
(esp) germination seems low in the majority of IMM crosses, & it's
anthers are definitely more sensitive to weather than, for example,
HoM,
MATRIX, RENOWN, VIOLET MIRACLE, TEA LEAVES.

CSONG seeds were an exception.  So was CHINA MOON (2010 cross, so too
soon to say if any of those will rebloom - one maiden fall bloom this
year) cross.  Guess I should look up the numbers before saying
germination is lower for sure, but that's my impression.  Simplest
explanation may be it's just not happy enough here to produce a lot of
viable seeds.

Abundant seed 2011 in backcrosses with CSONG children (just to see if
that works well to recapture rebloom - not expecting much in the way 
of

looks).

On 12/4/2011 3:38 PM, Chuck Chapman wrote:
> What you have with Immortality X Celebration song is not clear. 
Could

be
> a gene recombination of the two genes needed for FC rebloom. That is
> absence of vernalization genes plus absence of daylight dormancy 
gene.

> Combined, one from one parent , other from other parent. FB X
> Celebration Song = all oncers, but strong growth. Or could be
extended
> season rebloom. That is  plant reaches maturity early and then has
five
> months of growth, triggering "false Spring" trigger.

Always appreciate your thoughts on these (apparent) mysteries, Chuck.

Linda Mann east TN USA zone 7

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