Re: Re: HYB: another terminology question
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re: HYB: another terminology question
  • From: C* C* <i*@aim.com>
  • Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 12:57:13 -0500 (EST)
Beard colour?

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Tue, Feb 26, 2013 12:53 pm
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology question

The stalks looked very much like the stalks of Peach Spot.  They were
all short (about 18 inches in Alvaton KY) All had four buds with those
weak or flimsy terminals. They were all selfs with little dots beside
the beards. They were white-perhaps a bit off white.  Most blooms were
too big for their height.  Domed standards.  As I understand minimal
plicata, which I now understand would need some plicata in the
ancestry.  (but most irises do have plicata way back.) Though shorter,
they were much like some Immortality seedlings I had from a plicata
cross.  (couple of years later)  No fall spot.  Not one.  Entire 25 ft.
row.  Not sure I've had another cross (in 28 years) with such uniform
coloration, form & appearances.


<<I can explain my answer better if we start with something concrete.
You stared that in the cross of Peach Spot X Highland Chief  all the
seedlings were the same. So what did these seedlings look like?>>

I had pictures years ago, but they were never converted to the
computer.


Betty Wilkerson
Zone 6 KY
autmirislvr@aol.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Tue, Feb 26, 2013 10:57 am
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology question


I can explain my answer better if we start with something concrete. You
stared that in the cross of Peach Spot X Highland Chief  all the
seedlings were the same. So what did these seedlings look like?Colour
of S & F,  any spot  details and any other features. Then using this
cross we can analyze what the genes were.Any photo would also be
usefull.Chuck Chapman-----Original Message-----From: Betty Wilkerson
<autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Tue, Feb 26, 2013
8:12 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology questionIf I
understand what you are saying correctly, both irises would haveto be
either misnamed, or not what was actually crossed?'Highland Chief' was
one of my first irises bought from Schreiners.Looked like it, grew like
it.  'Peach Spot' looked like the irisdescribed in catalogues and the R
& I.  (Don't remember where I boughtit) That spring I had less than 50
irises in bloom.  I had almost norebloomers in flower so I went for
what ca rebloomers I had.  Thesewere it.  Only made 17 crosses total.I
made two crosses, one with each as the pod parent.  I grew 20+seedlings
from each cross.  As stated the ones with Peach Spot as thepod parent
were all almost identical.The ones with Highland Chief as the pod
parent contained a very widevariety of seedlings.  My favorite was the
one with triple sockets and9 buds.  It was a shade of dark orange.  Two
others were paler orange.Not as outstanding.  These and the Debbie
Reardon ones made the biggestimpression on me but there were others.How
can we know everything that was in both irises, since the R & Ireport
two seedling crosses in each identification?Betty WilkersonZone 6
KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----Original Message-----From: Chuck Chapman
<irischapman@aim.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon, Feb 25, 2013
9:00 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology
question"Striking color differences"  could mean many things. It is
somethingI'd take with a pretty big grain of salt , especially without
a lotmore information. Do they mean shades of colour, or complete
spectrumdifferences.  What were number of seedlings, small samples can
makehuge differences . How much did they know about  floral pigments,
howreliable are they, how good of observers are they, how subject
toexaggeration, how long ago was it, did they recall it correctly,
dothey know how to read pedigrees and identify genes,  etc.etc. I
haveheard several such stories, but they evaporate when checked out
indetail.Pulling out recessives  is not always understood by people
notknowledgeable in genetics, and subject to unusual
interpretations.Especially when small numbers in seedlings. I've seen
this more timesthen I have fingers and toes to count them. This could
be happeningwith your reporters. Also remember, there are lots of
people who swearthat their iris changed colour over winter.While it
would  betheoretically possible for silencing of one pigment gene,
throughepigenetics, this never has been observed and reported in
scienceliterature.The  cross you describes involves changes   in
severalpigment genes. Tangerine factor, halo, alternative
yellow,anthrocyanin  removal, spot pattern etc.  We now have several
veryhigh improbability events, all  joined together, with no
commonpathway for joining on genetic/molecular level. It would have to
be an"event" for each of these pigment/pattern factors.I have  read
numerousbooks on flower/ fruit pigments. I have 7 different books of my
own,all within arms reach as I'm typing. Used regularly. Plus have
readseveral hundred papers. Read four in past week alone. Just in case
Imay have missed something, I used the  U of Guelph science
researchengine, found nothing.  Some subtle changes in shading, some
subtledifferences in intensity, but never, ever in , pigments any where
closeto what you describe.Chuck Chapman-----Original Message-----From:
BettyWilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon,
Feb25, 2013 2:27 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another
terminologyquestionStriking color differences in reciprical
crosses.BettyWilkersonZone 6 KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----Original
Message-----From:Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>To: iris
<iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon,Feb 25, 2013 1:15 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re:
HYB: another terminologyquestionNot sure what you meant by "This is
common"Striking colourdifferencesin reciprical crosses?Orange
seedlings?Joyce TerryPattern?or?PeachSpot isn't an amoena, it is spot
pattern, variegataspot to bespecific. This is often confused with
amoena, but they aredifferent.If the amoena has a rim that doesn't have
 anthrocyanin, itlikely is avariegata  spot.There isn't any indication
that HighlandChief carriesthe genetics to produce an orange, (two
differentrecessive genes,tangerine and alternative yellow). and to
expect themto combine withthe recessive  alternative yellow, with  Pink
Spot,which would  haveless then four copies of this
gene.ChuckChapman-----OriginalMessage-----From: Betty
Wilkerson<autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon, Feb 25,
201311:20 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminology questionI
wastold, by reputed hybridizers,that this is common in plicata
andamoenacrosses.  Both irises haveseedlings as parentage with no
knowncultivarsas parents. How can weknow what the contributions
of'HighlandChief?'Betty WilkersonZone
6KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----OriginalMessage-----From: Chuck
Chapman<irischapman@aim.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sun, Feb 24,
20135:27 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminology
questionAscolour genes are nuclear, and nomodifications in colour
fromextra-nuclear genes, I'd have to say straypollen or some sort
ofothererror. The next thing I'd look at is soil
orlocationdifferences.Therecan  be conformation and size
differencesinreciprocal crosses, but Ihaven't heard of anything
resulting incolourdifferences of thisdegree.  I would expect this sort
of range ofcolour  that youdescribed, if Peach Spot was partially
selfed, andpartiallycrossed toa yellow halo type of iris, or or had a
yellow haloiris aspollendonner, that had a orange parent. There is
nothing inHighlandChiefthat could produce
thesecolours.ChuckChapman-----OriginalMessage-----From:
BettyWilkerson<autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sun,
Feb 24,20133:35 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another
terminologyquestionThefirst year I was making crosses Idid a cross
between PeachSpotandHighland Chief and also did thereverse.  'Peach
Spot' is awhiteiriswith a peach spot on the fall.Highland Chief is a
beautifulredonyellow/cream plicata from Gibson.Approximately, 30 each
way.All25+ ofthe PS X HC were approximately 18inches tall with four
bigblooms.   (BigBertha even bloomed on fall.)They all looked
alike.They could havebeenclones from the samerhizome.  But, they
weren't.They weresiblings.Theones with 'HighlandChief' as pod parent
produced a widevarietyofseedlings, all tall andmulti branched, some
with tripleteminals.Acouple were peach selfs.One was a bright orange
self.Severalhadwhite falls with yellowstandards and fall rings.  It was
oneofthemost educational andintriguing crosses I've
evermade.Theydefinitely did not look likesiblings.  There
werenocharacteristics incommon.  The one batch wasVERY ugly,
whiletheothers were allgoreous.How come if they
aresiblings?BettyWilkersonZone
6KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----OriginalMessage-----From:Chuck
Chapman<irischapman@aim.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sat, Feb23,
201310:56 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another
terminologyquestionForsibling cross, it wouldn't makeany difference
when  crosswas madeorwhich parent was pod or whichpollen.Why pod and
pollenparentwouldn'tmatter  is because the genescontrolling  major
factorsofcolour andpattern are not located inplastids or mitochondria.
Astogetting plantcharacteristics it wouldplay a role. They are
bothsibs.So a sib crossto pull out  or evaluaterecessives will
stillwork.But   the reversecross do have differentgenetics in terms
ofextra-nuclear  genes,  butare
siblings.ChuckChapman-----OriginalMessage-----From:BettyWilkerson<autmiri

slvr@aol.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sat,Feb 23,201311:13
amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB:anotherterminologyquestionSiblings are any
seedlings that come fromthesamecross.Example:'Treasured' X 'Renown'.
Treasured is the podparentandRenownis thepollen parent.A reverse cross
would be'Renown'X'Treasure'.  Itis not the same.Technically . . . if
Linda madethesamecross fiveyears later theywould be siblings.  They are
stillthesamecross.Eachseedlings in a pod is different, even if it can
notbeseenwiththenaked eye.  So, the fact that the seedlings
inLinda'scrosswouldlookdifferent than the ones in my cross would
beexpected,eventhoughtheywould still (most) look
likesiblings.Doesthishelp?BettyWilkersonZone6KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----Or

iginalMessage-----From:ShaubDunkley<miscaccts@bellsouth.net>To:
iris<iris@hort.net>Sent:Fri, Feb22, 20135:21 pmSubject: [iris] Re:
HYB:another terminologyquestionHeygroup-Hope this formats correctly -
wasunclear about howto postto thelist.I've lurked for some time on
alearning curve.Long curveto go butgottastumble in somewhere.It
wouldseem being abletodistinguish betweenpodsibling and sibling
separatedby time hasvalueworthconserving.Fraternal twins have less
chanceofbeingstep-sibling. Acrosstime,particularly across years,
thereismorechance that records mighthavegot mixed up, or field
labelsgotmixedup and Daddy Joe then is notDaddyJoe now, etc. (same
forMom).Mightnot a discriminating(subsequent)hybridizer want
toutilizesiblingknown to be from within thesame pod ifhe wanted
tocriticallyimprovechances of breeding within acertain
genepool?I'mstillfiguring outto sleuth cross information in
theregistrybut itisapparent somehybridizers use numbering
systemsthatarefairlytransparent as to whoare pod sibling and
whoareacross-timesibling.Gold stars to them.BTW- are there better
termsthanpodsiblings
andacross-timesiblings?ShaubDunkleyAsheville,NorthCarolinaZ6b-----Origina

lMessage----- From: TomWaters<irises@telp.com>To:iris<iris@hort.net>
Sent: Fri, Feb 22, 20139:11 amSubject:[iris]HYB:another terminology
questionWhile we're at it,I'minterestedinhowpeople understand the term
"sibling". I'veseenitsometimesapparentlyrestricted to two irises that
came from thesamepodof seed,or atleast the product of the cross of two
plantsmadebythesamehybridizer in the same year. It seems to me
thatsincethetwoparentsare clones, any irises with the
sameparentagearesiblings,even ifthe crosses that produced them were
mademany yearsormilesapart bydifferent people. My own brother and
sisters,forexample,areno lessmy brother and sisters for having
beengestatedseparatelyatdifferenttimes. ;) Tom Waters
TelperionOasis~www.telp.com/irisesCuyamungue,New
Mexico,USA(zone6)----------------------------------------From:"TomWaters"

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