Re: Re: HYB: another terminology question
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re: HYB: another terminology question
  • From: B* W* <a*@aol.com>
  • Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 12:47:07 -0500 (EST)
The stalks looked very much like the stalks of Peach Spot. They were all short (about 18 inches in Alvaton KY) All had four buds with those weak or flimsy terminals. They were all selfs with little dots beside the beards. They were white-perhaps a bit off white. Most blooms were too big for their height. Domed standards. As I understand minimal plicata, which I now understand would need some plicata in the ancestry. (but most irises do have plicata way back.) Though shorter, they were much like some Immortality seedlings I had from a plicata cross. (couple of years later) No fall spot. Not one. Entire 25 ft. row. Not sure I've had another cross (in 28 years) with such uniform coloration, form & appearances.
<<I can explain my answer better if we start with something concrete. You stared that in the cross of Peach Spot X Highland Chief all the seedlings were the same. So what did these seedlings look like?>>
I had pictures years ago, but they were never converted to the computer. 


Betty Wilkerson
Zone 6 KY
autmirislvr@aol.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Tue, Feb 26, 2013 10:57 am
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology question
I can explain my answer better if we start with something concrete. You stared that in the cross of Peach Spot X Highland Chief all the seedlings were the same. So what did these seedlings look like?Colour of S & F, any spot details and any other features. Then using this cross we can analyze what the genes were.Any photo would also be usefull.Chuck Chapman-----Original Message-----From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Tue, Feb 26, 2013 8:12 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology questionIf I understand what you are saying correctly, both irises would haveto be either misnamed, or not what was actually crossed?'Highland Chief' was one of my first irises bought from Schreiners.Looked like it, grew like it. 'Peach Spot' looked like the irisdescribed in catalogues and the R & I. (Don't remember where I boughtit) That spring I had less than 50 irises in bloom. I had almost norebloomers in flower so I went for what ca rebloomers I had. Thesewere it. Only made 17 crosses total.I made two crosses, one with each as the pod parent. I grew 20+seedlings from each cross. As stated the ones with Peach Spot as thepod parent were all almost identical.The ones with Highland Chief as the pod parent contained a very widevariety of seedlings. My favorite was the one with triple sockets and9 buds. It was a shade of dark orange. Two others were paler orange.Not as outstanding. These and the Debbie Reardon ones made the biggestimpression on me but there were others.How can we know everything that was in both irises, since the R & Ireport two seedling crosses in each identification?Betty WilkersonZone 6 KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----Original Message-----From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon, Feb 25, 2013 9:00 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology question"Striking color differences" could mean many things. It is somethingI'd take with a pretty big grain of salt , especially without a lotmore information. Do they mean shades of colour, or complete spectrumdifferences. What were number of seedlings, small samples can makehuge differences . How much did they know about floral pigments, howreliable are they, how good of observers are they, how subject toexaggeration, how long ago was it, did they recall it correctly, dothey know how to read pedigrees and identify genes, etc.etc. I haveheard several such stories, but they evaporate when checked out indetail.Pulling out recessives is not always understood by people notknowledgeable in genetics, and subject to unusual interpretations.Especially when small numbers in seedlings. I've seen this more timesthen I have fingers and toes to count them. This could be happeningwith your reporters. Also remember, there are lots of people who swearthat their iris changed colour over winter.While it would betheoretically possible for silencing of one pigment gene, throughepigenetics, this never has been observed and reported in scienceliterature.The cross you describes involves changes in severalpigment genes. Tangerine factor, halo, alternative yellow,anthrocyanin removal, spot pattern etc. We now have several veryhigh improbability events, all joined together, with no commonpathway for joining on genetic/molecular level. It would have to be an"event" for each of these pigment/pattern factors.I have read numerousbooks on flower/ fruit pigments. I have 7 different books of my own,all within arms reach as I'm typing. Used regularly. Plus have readseveral hundred papers. Read four in past week alone. Just in case Imay have missed something, I used the U of Guelph science researchengine, found nothing. Some subtle changes in shading, some subtledifferences in intensity, but never, ever in , pigments any where closeto what you describe.Chuck Chapman-----Original Message-----From: BettyWilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon, Feb25, 2013 2:27 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminologyquestionStriking color differences in reciprical crosses.BettyWilkersonZone 6 KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----Original Message-----From:Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon,Feb 25, 2013 1:15 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminologyquestionNot sure what you meant by "This is common"Striking colourdifferencesin reciprical crosses?Orange seedlings?Joyce TerryPattern?or?PeachSpot isn't an amoena, it is spot pattern, variegataspot to bespecific. This is often confused with amoena, but they aredifferent.If the amoena has a rim that doesn't have anthrocyanin, itlikely is avariegata spot.There isn't any indication that HighlandChief carriesthe genetics to produce an orange, (two differentrecessive genes,tangerine and alternative yellow). and to expect themto combine withthe recessive alternative yellow, with Pink Spot,which would haveless then four copies of this gene.ChuckChapman-----OriginalMessage-----From: Betty Wilkerson<autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon, Feb 25, 201311:20 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminology questionI wastold, by reputed hybridizers,that this is common in plicata andamoenacrosses. Both irises haveseedlings as parentage with no knowncultivarsas parents. How can weknow what the contributions of'HighlandChief?'Betty WilkersonZone 6KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----OriginalMessage-----From: Chuck Chapman<irischapman@aim.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sun, Feb 24, 20135:27 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminology questionAscolour genes are nuclear, and nomodifications in colour fromextra-nuclear genes, I'd have to say straypollen or some sort ofothererror. The next thing I'd look at is soil orlocationdifferences.Therecan be conformation and size differencesinreciprocal crosses, but Ihaven't heard of anything resulting incolourdifferences of thisdegree. I would expect this sort of range ofcolour that youdescribed, if Peach Spot was partially selfed, andpartiallycrossed toa yellow halo type of iris, or or had a yellow haloiris aspollendonner, that had a orange parent. There is nothing inHighlandChiefthat could produce thesecolours.ChuckChapman-----OriginalMessage-----From: BettyWilkerson<autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sun, Feb 24,20133:35 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminologyquestionThefirst year I was making crosses Idid a cross between PeachSpotandHighland Chief and also did thereverse. 'Peach Spot' is awhiteiriswith a peach spot on the fall.Highland Chief is a beautifulredonyellow/cream plicata from Gibson.Approximately, 30 each way.All25+ ofthe PS X HC were approximately 18inches tall with four bigblooms. (BigBertha even bloomed on fall.)They all looked alike.They could havebeenclones from the samerhizome. But, they weren't.They weresiblings.Theones with 'HighlandChief' as pod parent produced a widevarietyofseedlings, all tall andmulti branched, some with tripleteminals.Acouple were peach selfs.One was a bright orange self.Severalhadwhite falls with yellowstandards and fall rings. It was oneofthemost educational andintriguing crosses I've evermade.Theydefinitely did not look likesiblings. There werenocharacteristics incommon. The one batch wasVERY ugly, whiletheothers were allgoreous.How come if they aresiblings?BettyWilkersonZone 6KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----OriginalMessage-----From:Chuck Chapman<irischapman@aim.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sat, Feb23, 201310:56 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminologyquestionForsibling cross, it wouldn't makeany difference when crosswas madeorwhich parent was pod or whichpollen.Why pod and pollenparentwouldn'tmatter is because the genescontrolling major factorsofcolour andpattern are not located inplastids or mitochondria. Astogetting plantcharacteristics it wouldplay a role. They are bothsibs.So a sib crossto pull out or evaluaterecessives will stillwork.But the reversecross do have differentgenetics in terms ofextra-nuclear genes, butare siblings.ChuckChapman-----OriginalMessage-----From:BettyWilkerson<autmiri slvr@aol.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sat,Feb 23,201311:13 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB:anotherterminologyquestionSiblings are any seedlings that come fromthesamecross.Example:'Treasured' X 'Renown'. Treasured is the podparentandRenownis thepollen parent.A reverse cross would be'Renown'X'Treasure'. Itis not the same.Technically . . . if Linda madethesamecross fiveyears later theywould be siblings. They are stillthesamecross.Eachseedlings in a pod is different, even if it can notbeseenwiththenaked eye. So, the fact that the seedlings inLinda'scrosswouldlookdifferent than the ones in my cross would beexpected,eventhoughtheywould still (most) look likesiblings.Doesthishelp?BettyWilkersonZone6KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----Or iginalMessage-----From:ShaubDunkley<miscaccts@bellsouth.net>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent:Fri, Feb22, 20135:21 pmSubject: [iris] Re: HYB:another terminologyquestionHeygroup-Hope this formats correctly - wasunclear about howto postto thelist.I've lurked for some time on alearning curve.Long curveto go butgottastumble in somewhere.It wouldseem being abletodistinguish betweenpodsibling and sibling separatedby time hasvalueworthconserving.Fraternal twins have less chanceofbeingstep-sibling. Acrosstime,particularly across years, thereismorechance that records mighthavegot mixed up, or field labelsgotmixedup and Daddy Joe then is notDaddyJoe now, etc. (same forMom).Mightnot a discriminating(subsequent)hybridizer want toutilizesiblingknown to be from within thesame pod ifhe wanted tocriticallyimprovechances of breeding within acertain genepool?I'mstillfiguring outto sleuth cross information in theregistrybut itisapparent somehybridizers use numbering systemsthatarefairlytransparent as to whoare pod sibling and whoareacross-timesibling.Gold stars to them.BTW- are there better termsthanpodsiblings andacross-timesiblings?ShaubDunkleyAsheville,NorthCarolinaZ6b-----Origina lMessage----- From: TomWaters<irises@telp.com>To:iris<iris@hort.net> Sent: Fri, Feb 22, 20139:11 amSubject:[iris]HYB:another terminology questionWhile we're at it,I'minterestedinhowpeople understand the term "sibling". I'veseenitsometimesapparentlyrestricted to two irises that came from thesamepodof seed,or atleast the product of the cross of two plantsmadebythesamehybridizer in the same year. It seems to me thatsincethetwoparentsare clones, any irises with the sameparentagearesiblings,even ifthe crosses that produced them were mademany yearsormilesapart bydifferent people. My own brother and sisters,forexample,areno lessmy brother and sisters for having beengestatedseparatelyatdifferenttimes. ;) Tom Waters TelperionOasis~www.telp.com/irisesCuyamungue,New Mexico,USA(zone6)----------------------------------------From:"TomWaters" <irises@telp.com>Sent: sendemailtomajordomo@hort.netwiththemessagetextUNSUBSCRIBEIRIS----------- ----------------------------------------------------------To sign-off thislist, send email to majordomo@hort.netmajordomo@hort.netmajordomo@hort.netmajordomo@hort.net majordomo@hort.net majordomo@hort.net withthemessagetext UNSUBSCRIBEIRIS---------------------------------------------------------- -----------To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with themessagetext UNSUBSCRIBEIRIS---------------------------------------------------------- -----------To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with themessagetext UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS--------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with themessage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS--------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with themessage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS 

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