Re: Re: HYB: another terminology question
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re: HYB: another terminology question
  • From: B* W* <a*@aol.com>
  • Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:05:23 -0500 (EST)
If I understand what you are saying correctly, both irises would have to be either misnamed, or not what was actually crossed?
'Highland Chief' was one of my first irises bought from Schreiners. Looked like it, grew like it. 'Peach Spot' looked like the iris described in catalogues and the R & I. (Don't remember where I bought it) That spring I had less than 50 irises in bloom. I had almost no rebloomers in flower so I went for what ca rebloomers I had. These were it. Only made 17 crosses total.
I made two crosses, one with each as the pod parent. I grew 20+ seedlings from each cross. As stated the ones with Peach Spot as the pod parent were all almost identical.
The ones with Highland Chief as the pod parent contained a very wide variety of seedlings. My favorite was the one with triple sockets and 9 buds. It was a shade of dark orange. Two others were paler orange. Not as outstanding. These and the Debbie Reardon ones made the biggest impression on me but there were others.
How can we know everything that was in both irises, since the R & I report two seedling crosses in each identification? 



Betty Wilkerson
Zone 6 KY
autmirislvr@aol.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Mon, Feb 25, 2013 9:00 pm
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology question
"Striking color differences" could mean many things. It is something I'd take with a pretty big grain of salt , especially without a lot more information. Do they mean shades of colour, or complete spectrum differences. What were number of seedlings, small samples can make huge differences . How much did they know about floral pigments, how reliable are they, how good of observers are they, how subject to exaggeration, how long ago was it, did they recall it correctly, do they know how to read pedigrees and identify genes, etc.etc. I have heard several such stories, but they evaporate when checked out in detail.Pulling out recessives is not always understood by people not knowledgeable in genetics, and subject to unusual interpretations. Especially when small numbers in seedlings. I've seen this more times then I have fingers and toes to count them. This could be happening with your reporters. Also remember, there are lots of people who swear that their iris changed colour over winter.While it would be theoretically possible for silencing of one pigment gene, through epigenetics, this never has been observed and reported in science literature.The cross you describes involves changes in several pigment genes. Tangerine factor, halo, alternative yellow, anthrocyanin removal, spot pattern etc. We now have several very high improbability events, all joined together, with no common pathway for joining on genetic/molecular level. It would have to be an "event" for each of these pigment/pattern factors.I have read numerous books on flower/ fruit pigments. I have 7 different books of my own, all within arms reach as I'm typing. Used regularly. Plus have read several hundred papers. Read four in past week alone. Just in case I may have missed something, I used the U of Guelph science research engine, found nothing. Some subtle changes in shading, some subtle differences in intensity, but never, ever in , pigments any where close to what you describe.Chuck Chapman-----Original Message-----From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon, Feb 25, 2013 2:27 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology questionStriking color differences in reciprical crosses.Betty WilkersonZone 6 KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----Original Message-----From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon, Feb 25, 2013 1:15 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology questionNot sure what you meant by "This is common"Striking colour differencesin reciprical crosses?Orange seedlings?Joyce Terry Pattern?or?PeachSpot isn't an amoena, it is spot pattern, variegata spot to bespecific. This is often confused with amoena, but they are different.If the amoena has a rim that doesn't have anthrocyanin, it likely is avariegata spot.There isn't any indication that Highland Chief carriesthe genetics to produce an orange, (two different recessive genes,tangerine and alternative yellow). and to expect them to combine withthe recessive alternative yellow, with Pink Spot, which would haveless then four copies of this gene.Chuck Chapman-----OriginalMessage-----From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon, Feb 25, 2013 11:20 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminology questionI was told, by reputed hybridizers,that this is common in plicata andamoena crosses. Both irises haveseedlings as parentage with no knowncultivars as parents. How can weknow what the contributions of'Highland Chief?'Betty WilkersonZone 6KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----Original Message-----From: Chuck Chapman<irischapman@aim.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Sun, Feb 24, 20135:27 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology questionAscolour genes are nuclear, and no modifications in colour fromextra-nuclear genes, I'd have to say stray pollen or some sort ofothererror. The next thing I'd look at is soil or locationdifferences.Therecan be conformation and size differences inreciprocal crosses, but Ihaven't heard of anything resulting in colourdifferences of thisdegree. I would expect this sort of range of colour that youdescribed, if Peach Spot was partially selfed, and partiallycrossed toa yellow halo type of iris, or or had a yellow halo iris aspollendonner, that had a orange parent. There is nothing in HighlandChiefthat could produce these colours.ChuckChapman-----OriginalMessage-----From: Betty Wilkerson<autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sun, Feb 24, 20133:35 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminology questionThefirst year I was making crosses Idid a cross between Peach SpotandHighland Chief and also did thereverse. 'Peach Spot' is a whiteiriswith a peach spot on the fall.Highland Chief is a beautiful redonyellow/cream plicata from Gibson.Approximately, 30 each way.All 25+ ofthe PS X HC were approximately 18inches tall with four bigblooms. (BigBertha even bloomed on fall.)They all looked alike.They could have beenclones from the samerhizome. But, they weren't.They were siblings.Theones with 'HighlandChief' as pod parent produced a wide varietyofseedlings, all tall andmulti branched, some with triple teminals.Acouple were peach selfs.One was a bright orange self. Severalhadwhite falls with yellowstandards and fall rings. It was one ofthemost educational andintriguing crosses I've ever made.Theydefinitely did not look likesiblings. There were nocharacteristics incommon. The one batch wasVERY ugly, while theothers were allgoreous.How come if they aresiblings?Betty WilkersonZone 6KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----OriginalMessage-----From: Chuck Chapman<irischapman@aim.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sat, Feb 23, 201310:56 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminology questionForsibling cross, it wouldn't makeany difference when cross was madeorwhich parent was pod or whichpollen.Why pod and pollen parentwouldn'tmatter is because the genescontrolling major factors ofcolour andpattern are not located inplastids or mitochondria. As togetting plantcharacteristics it wouldplay a role. They are both sibs.So a sib crossto pull out or evaluaterecessives will still work.But the reversecross do have differentgenetics in terms of extra-nuclear genes, butare siblings.ChuckChapman-----Original Message-----From:BettyWilkerson<autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Sat,Feb 23,201311:13 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB:anotherterminologyquestionSiblings are any seedlings that come from thesamecross.Example:'Treasured' X 'Renown'. Treasured is the pod parentandRenownis thepollen parent.A reverse cross would be 'Renown'X'Treasure'. Itis not the same.Technically . . . if Linda made thesamecross fiveyears later theywould be siblings. They are still thesamecross.Eachseedlings in a pod is different, even if it can not beseenwiththenaked eye. So, the fact that the seedlings in Linda'scrosswouldlookdifferent than the ones in my cross would be expected,eventhoughtheywould still (most) look like siblings.Doesthishelp?BettyWilkersonZone 6KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----OriginalMessage-----From:Shaub Dunkley<miscaccts@bellsouth.net>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent:Fri, Feb 22, 20135:21 pmSubject: [iris] Re: HYB:another terminologyquestionHey group-Hope this formats correctly - wasunclear about howto postto the list.I've lurked for some time on alearning curve.Long curveto go but gottastumble in somewhere.It wouldseem being abletodistinguish between podsibling and sibling separatedby time hasvalueworth conserving.Fraternal twins have less chanceofbeingstep-sibling. Across time,particularly across years, thereismorechance that records might havegot mixed up, or field labelsgotmixedup and Daddy Joe then is not DaddyJoe now, etc. (same forMom).Mightnot a discriminating (subsequent)hybridizer want toutilizesiblingknown to be from within the same pod ifhe wanted tocriticallyimprovechances of breeding within a certain genepool?I'mstillfiguring outto sleuth cross information in the registrybut itisapparent somehybridizers use numbering systems thatarefairlytransparent as to whoare pod sibling and who areacross-timesibling.Gold stars to them.BTW- are there better terms thanpodsiblings andacross-timesiblings?Shaub DunkleyAsheville,NorthCarolinaZ6b-----OriginalMessage----- From: Tom Waters<irises@telp.com>To:iris<iris@hort.net> Sent: Fri, Feb 22, 2013 9:11 amSubject:[iris]HYB:another terminology questionWhile we're at it, I'minterestedinhowpeople understand the term "sibling". I've seenitsometimesapparentlyrestricted to two irises that came from the samepodof seed,or atleast the product of the cross of two plants madebythesamehybridizer in the same year. It seems to me that sincethetwoparentsare clones, any irises with the same parentagearesiblings,even ifthe crosses that produced them were made many yearsormilesapart bydifferent people. My own brother and sisters, forexample,areno lessmy brother and sisters for having been gestatedseparatelyatdifferenttimes. ;) Tom Waters Telperion Oasis~www.telp.com/irisesCuyamungue,New Mexico, USA(zone6)----------------------------------------From:"TomWaters"<irises @telp.com>Sent: Friday, February22,20137:22AMTo:------------------------------------------------- --------------------To sign-off this list, send emailtomajordomo@hort.netwiththemessagetextUNSUBSCRIBEIRIS--------------- ------------------------------------------------------To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.netmajordomo@hort.net majordomo@hort.net majordomo@hort.net withthemessagetext UNSUBSCRIBEIRIS---------------------------------------------------------- -----------To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with themessagetext UNSUBSCRIBEIRIS---------------------------------------------------------- -----------To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with themessagetext UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS--------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with themessage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS--------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with themessage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS 

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