Re: Re: HYB: another terminology question
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re: HYB: another terminology question
  • From: C* C* <i*@aim.com>
  • Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 09:46:35 -0500 (EST)
The reciprocal crosses will be the same in colour regardless of what recessive genes the parents carry. Perhaps some shading differences, perhaps some sampling differences (not all patterns show up in each cross), but the same.
There hasn't been any reported examples in scientific literature of differences of this type of pigment differences in reciprocal crosses, or in any book on flower pigments. In this cross , as you report it, there are differences between the two crosses on expression of several genes. This just can't happen. Theoretically possible on one gene , but never has been reported, so a highly improbable event. On several genes at one is even lower probability. Something like impossible X impossible, about four or five times. Something like probability of picking up a handful of gravel from your yard and having five pure diamonds in this handful of gravel. 

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Tue, Feb 26, 2013 8:12 am
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology question

If I understand what you are saying correctly, both irises would have
to be either misnamed, or not what was actually crossed?

'Highland Chief' was one of my first irises bought from Schreiners.
Looked like it, grew like it.  'Peach Spot' looked like the iris
described in catalogues and the R & I.  (Don't remember where I bought
it) That spring I had less than 50 irises in bloom.  I had almost no
rebloomers in flower so I went for what ca rebloomers I had.  These
were it.  Only made 17 crosses total.

I made two crosses, one with each as the pod parent.  I grew 20+
seedlings from each cross.  As stated the ones with Peach Spot as the
pod parent were all almost identical.

The ones with Highland Chief as the pod parent contained a very wide
variety of seedlings.  My favorite was the one with triple sockets and
9 buds.  It was a shade of dark orange.  Two others were paler orange.
Not as outstanding.  These and the Debbie Reardon ones made the biggest
impression on me but there were others.

How can we know everything that was in both irises, since the R & I
report two seedling crosses in each identification?



Betty Wilkerson
Zone 6 KY
autmirislvr@aol.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Mon, Feb 25, 2013 9:00 pm
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology question


"Striking color differences"  could mean many things. It is something
I'd take with a pretty big grain of salt , especially without a lot
more information. Do they mean shades of colour, or complete spectrum
differences.  What were number of seedlings, small samples can make
huge differences . How much did they know about  floral pigments, how
reliable are they, how good of observers are they, how subject to
exaggeration, how long ago was it, did they recall it correctly, do
they know how to read pedigrees and identify genes,  etc.etc. I have
heard several such stories, but they evaporate when checked out in
detail.Pulling out recessives  is not always understood by people not
knowledgeable in genetics, and subject to unusual interpretations.
Especially when small numbers in seedlings. I've seen this more times
then I have fingers and toes to count them. This could be happening
with your reporters. Also remember, there are lots of people who swear
that their iris changed colour over winter.While it would  be
theoretically possible for silencing of one pigment gene, through
epigenetics, this never has been observed and reported in science
literature.The  cross you describes involves changes   in several
pigment genes. Tangerine factor, halo, alternative yellow,
anthrocyanin  removal, spot pattern etc.  We now have several  very
high improbability events, all  joined together, with no  common
pathway for joining on genetic/molecular level. It would have to be an
"event" for each of these pigment/pattern factors.I have  read numerous
books on flower/ fruit pigments. I have 7 different books of my own,
all within arms reach as I'm typing. Used regularly. Plus have read
several hundred papers. Read four in past week alone. Just in case I
may have missed something, I used the  U of Guelph science research
engine, found nothing.  Some subtle changes in shading, some subtle
differences in intensity, but never, ever in , pigments any where close
to what you describe.Chuck Chapman-----Original Message-----From: Betty
Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon, Feb
25, 2013 2:27 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology
questionStriking color differences in reciprical crosses.Betty
WilkersonZone 6 KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----Original Message-----From:
Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon,
Feb 25, 2013 1:15 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology
questionNot sure what you meant by "This is common"Striking colour
differencesin reciprical crosses?Orange seedlings?Joyce Terry
Pattern?or?PeachSpot isn't an amoena, it is spot pattern, variegata
spot to bespecific. This is often confused with amoena, but they are
different.If the amoena has a rim that doesn't have  anthrocyanin, it
likely is avariegata  spot.There isn't any indication that Highland
Chief carriesthe genetics to produce an orange, (two different
recessive genes,tangerine and alternative yellow). and to expect them
to combine withthe recessive  alternative yellow, with  Pink Spot,
which would  haveless then four copies of this gene.Chuck
Chapman-----OriginalMessage-----From: Betty Wilkerson
<autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon, Feb 25, 2013
11:20 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminology questionI was
told, by reputed hybridizers,that this is common in plicata andamoena
crosses.  Both irises haveseedlings as parentage with no knowncultivars
as parents. How can weknow what the contributions of'Highland
Chief?'Betty WilkersonZone 6KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----Original
Message-----From: Chuck Chapman<irischapman@aim.com>To: iris
<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sun, Feb 24, 20135:27 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re:
HYB: another terminology questionAscolour genes are nuclear, and no
modifications in colour fromextra-nuclear genes, I'd have to say stray
pollen or some sort ofothererror. The next thing I'd look at is soil or
locationdifferences.Therecan  be conformation and size differences
inreciprocal crosses, but Ihaven't heard of anything resulting in
colourdifferences of thisdegree.  I would expect this sort of range of
colour  that youdescribed, if Peach Spot was partially selfed, and
partiallycrossed toa yellow halo type of iris, or or had a yellow halo
iris aspollendonner, that had a orange parent. There is nothing in
HighlandChiefthat could produce these
colours.ChuckChapman-----OriginalMessage-----From: Betty
Wilkerson<autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sun, Feb 24,
20133:35 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminology
questionThefirst year I was making crosses Idid a cross between Peach
SpotandHighland Chief and also did thereverse.  'Peach Spot' is a
whiteiriswith a peach spot on the fall.Highland Chief is a beautiful
redonyellow/cream plicata from Gibson.Approximately, 30 each way.All
25+ ofthe PS X HC were approximately 18inches tall with four bigblooms.
(BigBertha even bloomed on fall.)They all looked alike.They could have 
beenclones from the samerhizome.  But, they weren't.They were
siblings.Theones with 'HighlandChief' as pod parent produced a wide
varietyofseedlings, all tall andmulti branched, some with triple
teminals.Acouple were peach selfs.One was a bright orange self.
Severalhadwhite falls with yellowstandards and fall rings.  It was one
ofthemost educational andintriguing crosses I've ever
made.Theydefinitely did not look likesiblings.  There were
nocharacteristics incommon.  The one batch wasVERY ugly, while
theothers were allgoreous.How come if they aresiblings?Betty
WilkersonZone 6KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----OriginalMessage-----From:
Chuck Chapman<irischapman@aim.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sat, Feb
23, 201310:56 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminology
questionForsibling cross, it wouldn't makeany difference when  cross
was madeorwhich parent was pod or whichpollen.Why pod and pollen
parentwouldn'tmatter  is because the genescontrolling  major factors
ofcolour andpattern are not located inplastids or mitochondria.  As
togetting plantcharacteristics it wouldplay a role. They are both
sibs.So a sib crossto pull out  or evaluaterecessives will still
work.But   the reversecross do have differentgenetics in terms of
extra-nuclear  genes,  butare siblings.ChuckChapman-----Original
Message-----From:BettyWilkerson<autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris
<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sat,Feb 23,201311:13 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:
HYB:anotherterminologyquestionSiblings are any seedlings that come from
thesamecross.Example:'Treasured' X 'Renown'.  Treasured is the pod
parentandRenownis thepollen parent.A reverse cross would be
'Renown'X'Treasure'.  Itis not the same.Technically . . . if Linda made
thesamecross fiveyears later theywould be siblings.  They are still
thesamecross.Eachseedlings in a pod is different, even if it can not
beseenwiththenaked eye.  So, the fact that the seedlings in
Linda'scrosswouldlookdifferent than the ones in my cross would be
expected,eventhoughtheywould still (most) look like
siblings.Doesthishelp?BettyWilkersonZone
6KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----OriginalMessage-----From:Shaub
Dunkley<miscaccts@bellsouth.net>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent:Fri, Feb
22, 20135:21 pmSubject: [iris] Re: HYB:another terminologyquestionHey
group-Hope this formats correctly - wasunclear about howto postto the
list.I've lurked for some time on alearning curve.Long curveto go but
gottastumble in somewhere.It wouldseem being abletodistinguish between
podsibling and sibling separatedby time hasvalueworth
conserving.Fraternal twins have less chanceofbeingstep-sibling. Across
time,particularly across years, thereismorechance that records might
havegot mixed up, or field labelsgotmixedup and Daddy Joe then is not
DaddyJoe now, etc. (same forMom).Mightnot a discriminating
(subsequent)hybridizer want toutilizesiblingknown to be from within the
same pod ifhe wanted tocriticallyimprovechances of breeding within a
certain genepool?I'mstillfiguring outto sleuth cross information in the
registrybut itisapparent somehybridizers use numbering systems
thatarefairlytransparent as to whoare pod sibling and who
areacross-timesibling.Gold stars to them.BTW- are there better terms
thanpodsiblings andacross-timesiblings?Shaub
DunkleyAsheville,NorthCarolinaZ6b-----OriginalMessage----- From: Tom
Waters<irises@telp.com>To:iris<iris@hort.net> Sent: Fri, Feb 22, 2013
9:11 amSubject:[iris]HYB:another terminology questionWhile we're at it,
I'minterestedinhowpeople understand the term "sibling". I've
seenitsometimesapparentlyrestricted to two irises that came from the
samepodof seed,or atleast the product of the cross of two plants
madebythesamehybridizer in the same year. It seems to me that
sincethetwoparentsare clones, any irises with the same
parentagearesiblings,even ifthe crosses that produced them were made
many yearsormilesapart bydifferent people. My own brother and sisters,
forexample,areno lessmy brother and sisters for having been
gestatedseparatelyatdifferenttimes. ;) Tom Waters Telperion
Oasis~www.telp.com/irisesCuyamungue,New Mexico,
USA(zone6)----------------------------------------From:"TomWaters"<irises

@telp.com>Sent: Friday,
February22,20137:22AMTo:-------------------------------------------------

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