Re: Re: HYB: another terminology question
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re: HYB: another terminology question
  • From: C* C* <i*@aim.com>
  • Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 21:53:32 -0500 (EST)
"Striking color differences" could mean many things. It is something I'd take with a pretty big grain of salt , especially without a lot more information. Do they mean shades of colour, or complete spectrum differences. What were number of seedlings, small samples can make huge differences . How much did they know about floral pigments, how reliable are they, how good of observers are they, how subject to exaggeration, how long ago was it, did they recall it correctly, do they know how to read pedigrees and identify genes, etc.etc. I have heard several such stories, but they evaporate when checked out in detail.
Pulling out recessives is not always understood by people not knowledgeable in genetics, and subject to unusual interpretations. Especially when small numbers in seedlings. I've seen this more times then I have fingers and toes to count them. This could be happening with your reporters. Also remember, there are lots of people who swear that their iris changed colour over winter.
While it would be theoretically possible for silencing of one pigment gene, through epigenetics, this never has been observed and reported in science literature.
The cross you describes involves changes in several pigment genes. Tangerine factor, halo, alternative yellow, anthrocyanin removal, spot pattern etc. We now have several very high improbability events, all joined together, with no common pathway for joining on genetic/molecular level. It would have to be an "event" for each of these pigment/pattern factors.
I have read numerous books on flower/ fruit pigments. I have 7 different books of my own, all within arms reach as I'm typing. Used regularly. Plus have read several hundred papers. Read four in past week alone. Just in case I may have missed something, I used the U of Guelph science research engine, found nothing. Some subtle changes in shading, some subtle differences in intensity, but never, ever in , pigments any where close to what you describe. 

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Mon, Feb 25, 2013 2:27 pm
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology question

Striking color differences in reciprical crosses.



Betty Wilkerson
Zone 6 KY
autmirislvr@aol.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Mon, Feb 25, 2013 1:15 pm
Subject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology question


Not sure what you meant by "This is common"Striking colour differences
in reciprical crosses?Orange seedlings?Joyce Terry Pattern?or?Peach
Spot isn't an amoena, it is spot pattern, variegata spot to be
specific. This is often confused with amoena, but they are different.
If the amoena has a rim that doesn't have  anthrocyanin, it likely is a
variegata  spot.There isn't any indication that Highland Chief carries
the genetics to produce an orange, (two different  recessive genes,
tangerine and alternative yellow). and to expect them to combine with
the recessive  alternative yellow, with  Pink Spot, which would  have
less then four copies of this gene.Chuck Chapman-----Original
Message-----From: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris
<iris@hort.net>Sent: Mon, Feb 25, 2013 11:20 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:
HYB: another terminology questionI was told, by reputed hybridizers,
that this is common in plicata andamoena crosses.  Both irises have
seedlings as parentage with no knowncultivars as parents. How can we
know what the contributions of'Highland Chief?'Betty WilkersonZone 6
KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----Original Message-----From: Chuck Chapman
<irischapman@aim.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Sun, Feb 24, 2013
5:27 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB: another terminology questionAs
colour genes are nuclear, and no modifications in colour
fromextra-nuclear genes, I'd have to say stray pollen or some sort of
othererror. The next thing I'd look at is soil or location
differences.Therecan  be conformation and size differences in
reciprocal crosses, but Ihaven't heard of anything resulting in colour
differences of thisdegree.  I would expect this sort of range of colour
 that youdescribed, if Peach Spot was partially selfed, and partially
crossed toa yellow halo type of iris, or or had a yellow halo iris as
pollendonner, that had a orange parent. There is nothing in Highland
Chiefthat could produce these colours.Chuck
Chapman-----OriginalMessage-----From: Betty Wilkerson
<autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sun, Feb 24, 2013
3:35 pmSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminology questionThe
first year I was making crosses Idid a cross between Peach Spotand
Highland Chief and also did thereverse.  'Peach Spot' is a whiteiris
with a peach spot on the fall.Highland Chief is a beautiful redon
yellow/cream plicata from Gibson.Approximately, 30 each way.All 25+ of
the PS X HC were approximately 18inches tall with four bigblooms.  (Big
Bertha even bloomed on fall.)They all looked alike.They could have been
clones from the samerhizome.  But, they weren't.They were siblings.The
ones with 'HighlandChief' as pod parent produced a wide variety
ofseedlings, all tall andmulti branched, some with triple teminals.
Acouple were peach selfs.One was a bright orange self.  Several
hadwhite falls with yellowstandards and fall rings.  It was one of
themost educational andintriguing crosses I've ever made.They
definitely did not look likesiblings.  There were nocharacteristics in
common.  The one batch wasVERY ugly, while theothers were all
goreous.How come if they aresiblings?Betty WilkersonZone 6
KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----OriginalMessage-----From: Chuck Chapman
<irischapman@aim.com>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent: Sat, Feb 23, 2013
10:56 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re:HYB: another terminology questionFor
sibling cross, it wouldn't makeany difference when  cross was madeor
which parent was pod or whichpollen.Why pod and pollen parentwouldn't
matter  is because the genescontrolling  major factors ofcolour and
pattern are not located inplastids or mitochondria.  As togetting plant
characteristics it wouldplay a role. They are both sibs.So a sib cross
to pull out  or evaluaterecessives will still work.But   the reverse
cross do have differentgenetics in terms of extra-nuclear  genes,  but
are siblings.ChuckChapman-----Original Message-----From:Betty
Wilkerson<autmirislvr@aol.com>To: iris <iris@hort.net>Sent: Sat,Feb 23,
201311:13 amSubject: Re: [iris] Re: HYB:
anotherterminologyquestionSiblings are any seedlings that come from the
samecross.Example:'Treasured' X 'Renown'.  Treasured is the pod parent
andRenownis thepollen parent.A reverse cross would be 'Renown'
X'Treasure'.  Itis not the same.Technically . . . if Linda made the
samecross fiveyears later theywould be siblings.  They are still the
samecross.Eachseedlings in a pod is different, even if it can not be
seenwiththenaked eye.  So, the fact that the seedlings in Linda's
crosswouldlookdifferent than the ones in my cross would be expected,
eventhoughtheywould still (most) look like siblings.Does
thishelp?BettyWilkersonZone 6
KYautmirislvr@aol.com-----OriginalMessage-----From:Shaub Dunkley
<miscaccts@bellsouth.net>To: iris<iris@hort.net>Sent:Fri, Feb 22, 2013
5:21 pmSubject: [iris] Re: HYB:another terminologyquestionHey group
-Hope this formats correctly - wasunclear about howto postto the list.
I've lurked for some time on alearning curve.Long curveto go but gotta
stumble in somewhere.It wouldseem being abletodistinguish between pod
sibling and sibling separatedby time hasvalueworth conserving.
Fraternal twins have less chanceofbeingstep-sibling. Across time,
particularly across years, thereismorechance that records might have
got mixed up, or field labelsgotmixedup and Daddy Joe then is not Daddy
Joe now, etc. (same forMom).Mightnot a discriminating (subsequent)
hybridizer want toutilizesiblingknown to be from within the same pod if
he wanted tocriticallyimprovechances of breeding within a certain gene
pool?I'mstillfiguring outto sleuth cross information in the registry
but itisapparent somehybridizers use numbering systems that
arefairlytransparent as to whoare pod sibling and who are
across-timesibling.Gold stars to them.BTW- are there better terms than
podsiblings andacross-timesiblings?Shaub DunkleyAsheville,
NorthCarolinaZ6b-----OriginalMessage----- From: Tom Waters
<irises@telp.com>To:iris<iris@hort.net> Sent: Fri, Feb 22, 2013 9:11 am
Subject:[iris]HYB:another terminology questionWhile we're at it, I'm
interestedinhowpeople understand the term "sibling". I've seen
itsometimesapparentlyrestricted to two irises that came from the same
podof seed,or atleast the product of the cross of two plants made
bythesamehybridizer in the same year. It seems to me that since
thetwoparentsare clones, any irises with the same parentage
aresiblings,even ifthe crosses that produced them were made many years
ormilesapart bydifferent people. My own brother and sisters, for
example,areno lessmy brother and sisters for having been gestated
separatelyatdifferenttimes. ;) Tom Waters Telperion Oasis
~www.telp.com/irisesCuyamungue,New Mexico, USA
(zone6)----------------------------------------From:"TomWaters"<irises@te

lp.com>Sent: Friday, February
22,20137:22AMTo:---------------------------------------------------------

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