Re: Re: Re: wikiup for our photo data base (was Bulletin)
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: Re: Re: wikiup for our photo data base (was Bulletin)
  • From: R* P* <r*@embarqmail.com>
  • Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 18:22:37 -0500 (EST)
I said in an earlier statement that the wiki will be viewable to everyone. Only lawyers go through old motions to try to throw back statements that were made. Yes you have the first motion but you do not have all the subsequent motions or amendments. Ideas evolve. People who are really trying to understand what the right thing to do is change their minds as they examine and re-examine what they know. The AIS board may not always make the right decision but they are capable of learning and changing as they gain knowledge and improve on past motions. Selectively searching the minutes and saying they refute what a board member is saying goes not move us forward. Some statesments do not deserve a response.

As I have mentioned I think Daves Garden is fantastic for providing information on all types of plants and I wish Dave well. He is an Iris grower by the way. But I believe each specialist society should do its best to provide as much information as possible. The expertize among our members should be evident. I believe most people come to plant societies to gain information, plants and fellowship with others that share their love. We may in a sense be in competition to provide this information but it would be silly to complain we just have to do better. Daves Garden fiiled a need that the Iris society was not meeting, it still fills a need for many plants that are not represented by a society. But it lets us know what we should be doing.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Johnson" <tjatwork@orcon.net.nz>
To: iris@hort.net
Sent: Saturday, January 2, 2010 1:56:18 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [iris] Re: Re: wikiup for our photo data base (was Bulletin)

Of course you are not been combative Bob, by just selectively answering 
comments is just business as usual.
Just answer two or so questions directly please.
1 As asked in my previous post ' Has the board of the AIS approved the 
Wiki going Public?? Correspondence sent to me by yourself March 2009 
stated with reference to AIS board
minutes  and I quote "For example the original motion stated that the 
wiki will be within a AIS members only site and we will respect that. At 
some point we may or may not decide to have it open to anyone browsing 
the internet. But that decision will be made after we get something 
running and with the agreement of the board." Has this changed??
You seem to have informed Docents that once the milestone of 8000 
varieties are entered on the database it goes public, is this correct???

2 As one of your significant contributing docents has been a major 
contributor to Daves Garden iris list how does this fit with your theory 
AIS great information all other web sites are suspect.

Please do not marginalise people who offer constructive criticism or 
question the management of the Wiki in its present form by implying they 
are misrepresenting the Wiki  and try to remember that the so called 
"Other" web sites have helped by giving the Iris a great profile in the 
digital world.

As my original post did not connect with the other posts I have copied 
it below to keep thing together.
By the way Happy New Year to all





> Plant sites and other web sites exist despite of the Iris societies not 
> because of them. They are not in competition they are filling a void 
> that Iris societies did not cater to successfully or otherwise ignored. 
> Books on Irises also "Seek a profit" and is Mr Pries suggesting we 
> should ignore these as well?
> The competitive aspect has been introduced now by the Iris Society 
> redefining what some may think is its core business
>
> Readers with reasonable memories would recall the days of print media 
> when encyclopaedias where the fountain of knowledge. The biggest  
> 'Encyclopaedia Britannica' grew into a profitable enterprise whose 
> product was regarded as the gold standard for accuracy and 
> comprehensiveness. By 1990 sales revenues had reached US$650 million
> Five years after this date EB was almost killed off by what most of its 
> executives considered to be a joke, A partnership of Microsoft founder 
> Bill Gates  and bottom dwelling Encyclopedia Funk and Wagnalls.The 
> outcome was the incredible commercially successful 'Encarta'. In 1995 
> 'Encarta' gave real meaning to the term multi-media
>
> In April 2009 Microsoft Corporation announced that at the end of 2009 it 
> would close all of its Encarta Web Sites and its Press release stated 
> "People today seek and consume information in considerably different 
> ways than in years past. As part of Microsoft's goal to deliver the most 
> effective and engaging resources for today's consumer, it has made the 
> decision to exit the Encarta business."
>
> Today Wikipedia has become the flavour of the moment in the digital 
> knowledge world, "but would you bet the farm?" that this will be the 
> digital medium in ten years time.
>  
> Has the board of the AIS approved the Wiki going Public??
> Correspondence sent to me March 2009 stated with reference to AIS board 
> minutes /"For example the original motion stated that the wiki will be 
> within a AIS members only site and we will respect that. At some point 
> we may or may not decide to have it open to anyone browsing the 
> internet. But that decision will be made after we get something running 
> and with the agreement of the board./" Has this changed??
>
> I am not against the idea of a Iris Wiki (One already exists by the way) 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_%28plant%29> its just the premise 
> that an Iris Encyclopaedia will "Save" the Iris Society is emotive deceit .
>
> The story of Britannica is now a business-school case study on how 
> rapidly competitors can emerge - apparently from nowhere - in a digital 
> world.
>   

> I hope my remarks come through in red and Pauls in black because I would like
> to respond the many individual commentsbut if they do not the are separated
> byXXX
> Paul said
> Well actually his does support your goal if it were allowed.  Simply by
> organizing each person's individual data so they can make sense of it for
> landscape or research purposes.  He is also planning on having a system where
> people can upload their observations and data into his network. XXXThe wiki
> does exactly what you are suggesting. Not only can people upload photos they
> can upload observations. For example dozens of individuals could upload bloom
> dates both in the spring and rebloom. As the data accumulates a docent could
> assemble it into a table. Wikis are constructed by their users. I donbt
> believe there is any feature that plantsteps can offer that is not already
> present in the wiki.XXX
>
>  Obviosly he or someone in his approved network would have to oversee and
> evaluate the
> validitiy of the data (yes docents).  Does that not supplant and help us, the
> AIS, at what we are striving for the Iris... a source of reliable
> information?XXX Are you suggesting that the AIS information will not be as
> reliable as plantsteps? If anything I would suspect it will be more reliable
> on the Iris wiki..XXX
>
> I don't mean the following to be antagonistic but I'm sure it will come
> across
> that way but your program will only deal with the Iris, not the rest. XXX
> Excuse me but the iris wiki will provide much more that just a list of
> cultivars It will be a complete encyclopedia on Iris their cultivation,
> natural history, hybridizers, iris pedigrees. the list is endless. so what is
> the rest that we will not be doing?. XXX
>
> His program already surpasses your goals and allows me to keep hybridizing
> records, culture notes, ect.  Are you suggesting the AIS wiki Program will do
> that for me? XXXThe wiki is created by its users if you want it to do
> something it can. But if you are not contributing to it then it only does what
> others find useful.  XXXI think not and even if it does it will not be for
> quite a while. It is true the wiki is only getting started but the Iris
> society has been accumulating information for 80 years how long has plantsteps
> being creating information. What types of plants does plantsteps register?.
>
> I just thought there might be some good hearted cooperation and
> friend-plant-friend good will in the plant world. XXX I am all for cooperation
> but what can plantsteps offer AIS?. What you have been suggesting so far is
> that we take the hundreds of man-hours of data entry and turn it over to
> plantsteps for free so they can repackage it and market it for their profit.
> What would then be the value of the AIS website?   XXX I guess I was wrong to
> suppose so.  My mistake.  That might be a bit harsh but I don't really know
> how to put it and I apologize.
>
> And thank you Terry for your well thought out response.  If the digital age
> is
> going in that direction we will have no control of how it affects the AIS.We
> do have control  over quite a bit. XXX My goal is to make the Iris
> encyclopedia the premier source of Iris information on the internet. No one is
> pretending the other sites donbt exist I just hope to produce something
> better than they are producing and for those that wish the Iris society well,
> they are welcome to help. No one is excluding anyone, we are just not giving
> away everything we have. I recommend you use whichever site you like or both.
> But if you want a site to give away there information why does not plant steps
> take their information from Davebs Garden it was there first. I am not
> trying to be combative but I feel you are misrepresenting the Iris wiki as if
> it could not possibly be as good as the other site. XXX
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Archer" <pharcher@mindspring.com>
> To: iris@hort.net
> Sent: Friday, January 1, 2010 7:09:12 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [iris] Re: wikiup for our photo data base (was Bulletin)
>
> Well actually his does support your goal if it were allowed.  Simply by
> organizing each person's individual data so they can make sense of it for
> landscape or research purposes.  He is also planning on having a system where
> people can upload their observations and data into his network.  Obviosly he
> or someone in his approved network would have to oversee and evaluate the
> validitiy of the data (yes docents).  Does that not supplant and help us, the
> AIS, at what we are striving for the Iris... a source of reliable
> information?
>
> I don't mean the following to be antagonistic but I'm sure it will come
> across
> that way but your program will only deal with the Iris, not the rest.  His
> program already surpasses your goals and allows me to keep hybridizing
> records, culture notes, ect.  Are you suggesting the AIS wiki Program will do
> that for me?  I think not and even if it does it will not be for quite a
> while.  I just thought there might be some good hearted cooperation and
> friend-plant-friend good will in the plant world.  I guess I was wrong to
> suppose so.  My mistake.  That might be a bit harsh but I don't really know
> how to put it and I apologize.
>
> And thank you Terry for your well thought out response.  If the digital age
> is
> going in that direction we will have no control of how it affects the AIS.
> If
> nothing else by excluding ourselves and pretending that these other programs
> don't exist well...need I say that?  Creating our wiki site acknowledges that
> they do exist and its creation is an effort to combat them.  Often the best
> way to defend yourself is from within the "enemy lines".  But really the
> "enemy" (the database programs that exist on one's own compter) is not an
> enemy at all.  It is simply a way for one individual to organize their
> information and not a threat to the AIS wanting to collect information on
> Irises.  They will coexist no matter how we try so would it not be better to
> guide and direct them both to serve us all in a way that benefits us all?
>
> I'm not going to belabor the topic anymore.  If anyone else wants to comment
> they are welcome to.  I am going to continue to use my Plantstep program and
> when the AIS program is up it will supplant it with or without the AIS's
> cooperation.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Robert Pries <robertpries@embarqmail.com>
> >Sent: Jan 1, 2010 12:36 PM
> >To: iris@hort.net
> >Subject: Re: [iris] Re: wikiup for our photo data base (was Bulletin)
> >
> >Paul:  The wiki is a way to save the Iris Society. Most specialty plant
> >societies are losing members. Looking at demographic data and cultural
> trends
> >for the last three years, it is apparent that people primarily come to a
> plant
> >society for information. Unfortunately, plant societies have been more
> likely
> >to use the old technology of print. They have been slow to provide internet
> >information that would attract technology-savvy people to seek out the
> >society, and hopefully, join to gain the additional benefits of membership.
> >
> >Numerous plant sites like the one you mentioned, have emerged trying to fill
> >the void and in the process, seek a profit. The sites undermine plant
> >societies by re-directing those looking for information away from plant
> >societies. Plant societies are the foundation of this information. These
> sites
> >can provide information but do not offer the structure and benefits that the
> >specialty plant societies provide. Plant societies provide benefits to
> support
> >those creating this information. The Iris Society promotes research on Iris
> >and links the science community to the gardener. It supports the
> international
> >registry which successfully diminishes the misrepresentation that previously
> >existed in commerce as well as the confusion of multiple names for the same
> >plant. The Society also provides the structure for Iris shows, awards, local
> >clubs, and many other services. Members tend to take these benefits for
> >granted but realize their value when they are no longer provided.
> >
> >The site you mentioned and many others provide information but do not
> support
> >the structure that creates that information. These plant sites do not
> support
> >the other benefits plant societies provide, yet draw from the information
> that
> >the societies create. It is not surprising that plant societies have shown
> >very little enthusiasm to provide information to these sites. The sites have
> >everything to gain, yet they provide no benefit to the specialty plant
> >societies, the sources of their information. Until these sites find a way to
> >support the plant societies who have created much of the information they
> >offer, the sites diminish the societiesb ability to sustain their work.
> >
> >In the future, the Iris society will provide all the services your plant
> site
> >offers and more. In the interim, we must support the work of the Iris
> Society.
> >We must ensure that we do not facilitate the activities of the sites which
> >currently diminish the Iris Societybs ability to support all the functions
> >those involved in Iris gardening, hybridization, exhibition and research
> >expect. If the Iris Society declines, specialists will disappear. We will be
> >left with information provided by gardening generalists who lack in-depth
> >knowledge, expertise and experience.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Paul Archer" <pharcher@mindspring.com>
> >To: iris@hort.net
> >Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 11:53:10 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> >Subject: Re: [iris] Re: wikiup for our photo data base (was Bulletin)
> >
> >The Plantstep program (which anyone can view online to see for themselves
> and
> >view the creator's demo and tutorial) would only need to be able to access
> the
> >data as it appears in its database for downloading purposes, not for editing
> >the AIS program itself.
> >
> >I have asked the Plantstep author if he would like to make it a joint
> effort,
> >but in his dealings with Societies in the past he is under the impression
> that
> >they don't cooperate much.  He does have access for daylilies from AHS and
> not
> >sure how he incorporates it for use into the Plantstep program.  It might be
> >more worthwhile to talk with him about it since you are both working on
> >development of one's own program.  You can contact him through the Plantstep
> >website... or through me if you like.
> >
> >The program is still in its development stages for Irises and I think it
> would
> >be great for the AIS to get in on it from the beginning at the ground level.
> >
> >Once again I will state it is a WONDERFUL program and encourage all to take
> a
> >look at the website if you are looking to keep track of all of your plants,
> >hybridizing, wish lists, pictures and culture notes.  (EVERYTHING! and not
> >just Irises and Dayllies).  No, I'm not getting a kickback or profit by
> >promoting the sale and/or use of it... and it's CHEAP TOO! It's $30, not
> $150
> >like that other one you may have seen.
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Robert Pries <robertpries@embarqmail.com>
> >>Sent: Dec 31, 2009 8:36 PM
> >>To: iris@hort.net
> >>Subject: Re: [iris] Re: wikiup for our photo data base (was Bulletin)
> >>
> >>Paul; I am not familiar with Plant step. The Iris encyclopedia datadbase is
> >>being developed with the intention that the information will be open to the
> >>world. After it appears on the AIS website we may have to have passwords
> for
> >>those that are allowed to edit it because there are malicious people or
> >>pranksters out there that could screw it up just because they can. In my
> >mind
> >>there is no question that the information will be available for free but
> the
> >>priveledge to change that information may be restricted. those who register
> >>for free can still upload pictures and add comments but unless they are
> >given
> >>the priveledge they will not be able to edit or delete what has already
> been
> >>created. We will have to see what security winds up being necessary. AIS is
> >>also planning to have something called a virtual membershup. It will cost
> >only
> >>a fraction of the traditional print membership and it will have such things
> >as
> >>the bulletins available to down load. At present we expect to have much
> much
> >>more but the wiki itself is going to be outside the members only area and
> >free
> >>to the world. We may place the editing priviledges behind the members only
> >>site just to protect the data. But If I have much to say, anyone who helps
> >in
> >>the construction beforehand will have access to make changes in the future.
> >>Yes we need the revenue from the members only site to support the wiki in
> >the
> >>future. But this may be done in various ways. Perhaps we will ask frequent
> >>users if they might make a donation of a couple of bucks each year. Sort of
> >>the Public television pledge drive effort. There are lots of possiblilities
> >>but the main goal is to provide a valuable resource for free and hope that
> >>people recognize the effort by helping any or all the societies involved.If
> >>anyone would like to help build this database please send me an e-mail.
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Paul Archer" <pharcher@mindspring.com>
> >>To: iris@hort.net
> >>Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 4:59:29 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> >>Subject: Re: [iris] Re: wikiup for our photo data base (was Bulletin)
> >>
> >>I am excited about the Online Iris Database being set up.  Finally!  I was
> >>wondering if there are plans for it to be compatible with other database
> >>programs (i.e. www.plantstep.com) so that the stats can be downloaded into
> >>them.  It would be awesome if it could be as it is a great program (I have
> >>mentioned it before).  Or will I be relegated to buying the CD's or buying
> >>membership to the Online Registration data from the AIS and typing all of
> >>that
> >>in myself?
> >>
> >>Paul Archer
> >>Indianapolis, IN  Zone 5
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: Robert Pries <robertpries@embarqmail.com>
> >>>Sent: Dec 4, 2009 10:00 PM
> >>>To: iris@hort.net
> >>>Subject: Re: [iris] Re: wikiup for our photo data base (was Bulletin)
> >>>
> >>>I had several requests for more information concerning the Iris wiki, an
> >>>online Iris encyclopedia that will be available hopefully by spring on the
> >>AIS
> >>>website. And I will try to answer multiple e-mails with this post.
> >>>
> >>>First the people who I am training and working with to create this site
> are
> >>>called docents. At present docents are helping to put together the bones
> of
> >>>the site. By that I mean they must be able to enter data in a set way so
> >>that
> >>>the basis of this incredibly searchable database will work at its optimum
> >>>capacity. The same or other docents must be able to upload pictures in
> >>>specified way so that people viewing the data base will find what they are
> >>>looking for quickly even if they are on dial-up. These are two very simple
> >>>tasks but require some discipline to a set format. For those familiar with
> >>>Davebs  Garden. and/or the Wikipedia, be assured this combines the best of
> >>>each site and as it becomes fully functional will surpass either for
> >quality
> >>>and quantity of Iris information and for ease of use.. Once we have passed
> >>the
> >>>barn raising phase that we are in at present docents will help to maintain
> >>the
> >>>integrity of the site, help edit material, and help users with their
> >>>additions. Docents may also be a resource of information depending on
> their
> >>>interests.
> >>>
> >>>To explain more concretely, ultimately all 80,000 cultivars the entire AIS
> >>>checklist database will be represented. Each cultivar will have its own
> >page
> >>>and on that page up to 20 pictures can be added. Also each page will have
> a
> >>>comment box for adding additional information about the cultivar. For
> >>example
> >>>bloom times and rebloom times could be added for scores of localities
> >around
> >>>the world for any particular cultivar.
> >>>
> >>>We have a chicken and egg problem. If we have a cultivar page without a
> >>>picture people will be disappointed. But a picture can not be uploaded
> >>without
> >>>a pre-existing page. The challenge is to create mostly pages for which we
> >>can
> >>>add a picture immediately. Once a respectable page with picture is created
> >>all
> >>>sorts of information and additional pictures may be added. The data that
> is
> >>>there can be searched in almost every conceivable way. But at present the
> >>>challenge is to get into place enough of the basic structure, (individual
> >>>pages) so that it can begin to be useful. Davesb Garden claims to have
> >>8,000
> >>>Iris entries right now. I hope that we will have that many by Spring. But
> >>>obviously that can only be accomplished with a large number of docents.
> If
> >>>you are willing to follow some simple instructions and help with the heavy
> >>>lifting of cutting, pasting and editing I would be happy to have you as a
> >>>docent. I can provide materials that will make the task easy.
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: "Linda Mann" <lmann@lock-net.com>
> >>>To: iris@hort.net
> >>>Sent: Friday, December 4, 2009 11:39:03 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> >>>Subject: [iris] Re: wikiup for our photo data base (was Bulletin)
> >>>
> >>>I had to look up docent.  Sounds like these are volunteer teachers?  So
> >>>are the docents going to teach the photo contributers, or something else?
> >>>
> >>><I am training docents one at a time and hopefully by end of January I
> >>>will have about 100>
> >>>
> >>>Linda Mann
> >>>east TN
> >>>
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