iris@hort.net
- Subject: Re: Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow"
- From: B* W* <a*@aol.com>
- Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 19:49:37 -0500 (EST)
Chuck, How can we tell by looking at a plant if it's Tttt or tttt (just for instance.?) Somewhere back through the years, I've picked up the information that the only way you can really tell what any given iris is (is) by seeing what it produces in it's children? <<If a plant has? one dominant gene, for example a yellow with three t genes?(Tttt) is crossed with a tttt? (pink)? flower, half of the offspring will have a T gene and will be yellow (assuming all other genes are controlled)>> <<If a plant has two? independent dominant genes,>> By independent do you mean dominant genes that aren't linked in any way? Chuck, I've always been told that recessive genes, especially working with the tangerince factor, meant I would have to bloom a lot of seedlings just to get a couple of keepers. For instance: Rebloomers with the tangerine factor are almost non existent in my area. I'm left with trying to create what I want by outcrossing rebloomers (non-tangerine) with oncers (tangerine factor) and then crossing back in later generations. A tedious job. For instance, I've crossed Renown onto one of my pink irises. I have a decent lavender seedling with yellow beard (expected) which I now need to cross back to reblooming pink. Would it make sense for me to create a good rebloomer that contains all of the recessive colors I want--white with red beard, pink, orange, & red bearded yellow. (tangerine factors) Then use it to breed back to the various colors. Does this have any merit? Doesn't it take two dominant amoenas to produce a dominant amoena? Regards, Betty -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com> To: iris <iris@hort.net> Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:55 pm Subject: [iris] Re:Rebloom Genetics Was HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow" Two plants that are simple recessive for a trait, such as? the tangerine actor, that produces pink. If crossed with each other will produce all pink lowers, as there are no other? genes present. that is the gene for anscribing? (modifying lycopene into beta-carotene) are not present. If a plant has? one dominant gene, for example a yellow with three t genes? Tttt) is crossed with a tttt? (pink)? flower, half of the offspring will have T gene and will be yellow (assuming all other genes are controlled) f a plant has two? independent dominant genes, for example? one dominant moena? gene and one anthocyanin gene (white base in this case)? and it is rossed to a white recessive ( not a glaciata) , then half the plants will get he anthocyanin, and half will get the amoena. Thus? 1/4 of the seedlings will e amoena,? And 1/4 will be solid blue. That is because half of the plants that don't receive anthocyanin? will eceive amoena gene, but will not have any anthocyanin,? Another way of looking at it is that? half of the plants receiving? amoena ene? will? not receive the anthocyanin gene. Half of the plants receiving anthocyanin gene will? also receive amoena gene. hus the 1/4? of the plants show effect of getting?? a copy? of each dominant ene. Hope this clarrifyies? situation. Chuck Chapman ----Original Message----- rom: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com> o: iris@hort.net ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:41 pm ubject: Re: [iris] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow" orry, Paul. My examples were clumsy and incorrect. I didn't really mean o bring in the anthocynan vs carotenoid factors. Bad examples. I understand hat color and pattern are two different sets of genes and work independently. inda has walked me through this enough times that I think I finally have it. uderstand this below. lt;< Only one Dominant purple gene of the four that can exist is needed to e urple colored flowers. For a Recessive to "show" ompletely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in tetraploids) to be resent.>> My lack of clarity comes from classing summer rebloomers as recessive and fall ycle rebloomers as dominant. What I'm not understanding is where Chuck states: (in reference to genes and ebloom) "If it was a recessive only, then it would be 100%." From the paragraph elow. ><<I did get rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but ith esult gt;looking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant enes s gt;being involved in the rebloom complex. If it was a recessive only, then t gt;would have been 100%. The only explination that I can se so far is two gt;dominants, which gives the 25%. And one of these dominants very well may e gt;the Facilitative Vernalization gene.>> My thought was that two recessives would produce fewer rebloomers than two ominants, based on my understanding of the terms. Thinking out loud here: So . . . a recessive must have 4 copies per side to express for a total of 8 opies of the gene (summer reboom). . . . Okay, I see why Chuck says it hould be 100%! In my experience, this doesn't happen. Must be something lse or some combination. While a dominant would only need one on each side, there would only be 2 opies and therefore produce 25%. I think I understand the theory, now. It doesn't correlate with what I get ere. Of course, I've no idea what my percentage of rebloom would be if my eedlings were grown in a more hospitable climate. What types of modifiers and triggers do we recognize in rebloom, separate from he genes? Betty W. ----Original Message----- rom: Paul Archer <pharcher@mindspring.com> o: iris <iris@hort.net> ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:40 pm ubject: Re: [iris] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow" es, however just because a gene is Dominant does not mean all four genes esent in the plant for that character are "purple" genes. Only one Dominant rple gene of the four that can exist is needed to be purple colored flowers. r a Recessive to "show" completely a plant needs all 4 recessive genes (in traploids) to be present. You only need one Dominant in each parent for each rent to be purple. There are recessives that go along with the Dominants hat n emerge when two recessives from one plant meet the same two recessives from other plant. o when you cross two purple selfs you might get some roses, some plicatas, ome ites and glaciatas if the genes for those are there not expressing in the two rple flowers. Depending on the type of purple the colored flower you are ing you may also get carotenoid amoenas as well. ow a rhetorically supposition... Is purple form anthocyanin only or a mbination with carotenoids as well? An anthocyanin purple self flower could ve all four genes for carotenoid amoenas and not show it because it produces carotenoid in the petals. lso just to be sure you understand this comment is correct.... ou have both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.)" owever, the two genes are independent of each other. So you could get the rple form one parent and also get all plicatas from each parent (i.e. no self ne) and end up with a purple plicata. -----Original Message----- rom: Betty Wilkerson <autmirislvr@aol.com> ent: Jan 9, 2011 12:27 PM o: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com, iris@hort.net ubject: [iris] Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow" ,<<If it was a recessive only, then it would have been 100%. The only xplination that I can se so far is two dominants, which gives the 5%>> I seem to have some problems (still) understanding the difference in breeding ith dominants & recessives. Based on the words--dominant should mean that these genes will prevale over thers. If you cross two purple selfs, will you not get puple selfs? You ave both a dominant pattern--(self) and a dominant color--(purple.) Recessive--does this not mean that the genes try to disappear? Thus you must ave some on both sides of the cross to have any chance of getting the color tc..? You only get pink irises if pink exists on both sides of the cross. As to rebloom, I've not seen any cross that comes close to producing 100% ebloom in my climate. Betty W. . . . . also posting this on iris talk. ----Original Message----- rom: Chuck Chapman <irischapman@aim.com> o: iris-photos <iris-photos@yahoogroups.com> ent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 8:45 am ubject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow" rost Echo and Negra Modelo are both Fall Cyclic rebloomers. So basically nything crossed with them will produce some rebloomers. That is because FC eblooming is basically a dominant trait. I would suggest plant vigour and low mature leaf count at bloom time are the econdary characteristics which enhance rebloom and earlier rebloom on eedlings from a cross with a FC rebloomer. The more I look at this the more t makes sense. And my own crosses are backing this up. I had about 40 rebloom seedlings this year by crosses using these rincipals. ost of these were from FC reblomers crossed to plants with high plant igour, fast increase, and low leaf count. Some crosses producing 50% ebloomers. I did get rebloomers from crosses of Whenever X Whenever, but with result ooking like 25%, I'm suspecting one recessive gene and two dominant genes s eing involved in the rebloom complex. If it was a recessive only, then it ould have been 100%. The only explination that I can se so far is two ominants, which gives the 25%. And one of these dominants very well may be he Facilitative Vernalization gene. I have tested vigour hypothesei with cross of Forever Blue X Paradigm Shift the plant wit hhighest vigour and increase that I know) and did get one lant that rebloomed very late. Suggestive of Facilitative Vernalization, as lant had been mature for a long time, While FC X FC may increase number of reblooming seedlings, it is not ecessarily so. A cross of Lenora Pearl X October splendor (both FC ebloomers here) had about 30 seedlings, So far, on 2 years of mature plants 2006 cross) there has been no rebloom. I would suspect that crossing ither f these to a high vigour, low mature leaf count , non-rebloomer, that I ould et much better results The Summer Rebloomers and Whenever Rebloomers have a recessive gene in their omplex, so will need a coresponding rebloom gene in the other plant. So a arrier for Whenever gene will not work when crossed to a Summer rebloomer nd vice versa. So right carrier is needed for right plant. Something like Rain Dance, is not a carrier of anything. But it is a vigorous rower. So does have one of the secondary characteristics that can be elpful. Certainly keep your data. I would be very interested in your results, as I'm till sorting out all the factors. I'm starting to suspect that all of the rebloomers have Vernalization acilitative genes. More research and data is neded. Chuck Chapman -----Original Message----- rom: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com> o: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com ent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 3:59 pm ubject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow" ;? es Chuck, "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, Linda still hesitates to register t. ven if the texture is a bit thin, there aren't that many excellent ebloomers n the market, and this one is very reliable! know there is nothing certain to call an iris ' Rebloom Carrier ' but it is ust a personal way of selecting the irises i think have a potential to give ebloomers if crossed with rebloomers: Rain Dance' does not rebloom but, crossed with 'Frost Echo', has given the ebloomer 'Raindance Returns'. Punk' does not rebloom neither but, crossed with 'Negro Modelo', has given he rebloomer 'Under My Thumb'. I hope that my B204D = Step Ahead x Forever is a ' Rebloom Carrier ', having Forever Blue' as pol parent. nd finally, i also hope 'Spell' is a ' Rebloom Carrier ' with so many ebloomers in his parentage. have spent months sorting out into two categories the irises that i thought ad potentioal, and the ones that didn't. t's just a handy tool that helps me sort my crosses like this: X R : REB X REB X C : REB X CARRIER X N : REB X NON CARRIER (I might eventually make a more accurate selection by adding to the REB riteria E-REB for Early Rebloom and L-REB for Late Rebloom ) now have hundreds of seedlings that have at least one reblooming parent. call them my 'Rebloom Carriers', and even if they are incompatible, I still ope that after several generations, i will finally get some rebloom. ----- Original Message ----- rom: Chuck Chapman o: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com ent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 7:03 PM ubject: Re: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow" 'm assumming "Cloud Shadow" is a garden name, as I'm unable to find any nformation on it. hat is the rebloom information on it? If it is a Fall Cyclic rebloomer , then you will get a number of good FC ebloomers from cross with Autumn Jester, and some FC rebloomer s from the ther crosses. If it is a Summer Rebloomers, then no rebloomers from the other crosses nless ne of them has the correct gene set carried as recessive. Lotic, what information do you use to classify something as a "Rebloom arrier" ? Fall Cyclic and Vernalization facilitative rebloomers seem to be a result of dominant gene, thus you can't have carriers. Although some plants may have hese rebloom genes but lack secondary genes to enable rebloom. For "Summer rebloomers" and "Whenever Rebloomers" there are at least one et f recessive rebloom genes, so you can have carriers, but two differerent ypes. And each seems to also have at least one set of dominant genes as ell. I suspect "Whenever" rebloomers to have a recessive gene plus two ominant genes. Chuck Chapman -----Original Message----- rom: loic tasquier <tasquierloic@cs.com> o: iris-photos@yahoogroups.com ent: Sat, Jan 8, 2011 6:48 am ubject: [iris-photos] HYB seeds from "Cloud Shadow" Hello Linda, Here are the crosses i have managed with your reblooming " Cloud Shadow" = mmortality X Celebration Song. s you can see, it is fertile both ways. They are not TB X TB crosses, i know, but this mail is, in fact, for the edian Fans: will back-cross some of the best babies with their smaller parent. f you are interested in back-crosses with "Cloud Shadows", i can make them nd send you the seeds, but that will take some time! 2009cross DB X TB 'Autumn Jester' EBLOOMER Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER 31seeds 2009cross B X SDB Cloud Shadow" EBLOOMER Punk' PACE AGE REBLOOM- ARRIER 18seeds 2010cross DB X TB 204D= Step Ahead x Forever Blue REBLOOM- ARRIER Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER 7seeds 2010cross DB X TB Rain Dance' REBLOOM- ARRIER "Cloud Shadow" REBLOOMER 9seeds 2010cross B X MTB Cloud Shadow" EBLOOMER Spell' EBLOOM- ARRIER 41seeds f course, the minute i have pictures of the first babies, you will be first o know! ill then, we can dream... oC/c --------------------------------------------------------------------- o sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the essage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS -------------------------------------------------------------------- sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the ssage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS --------------------------------------------------------------------- o sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the essage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS --------------------------------------------------------------------- o sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the essage text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS --------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign-off this list, send email to majordomo@hort.net with the message text UNSUBSCRIBE IRIS
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