Re: REB: HYB: rebloom breeding
iris@hort.net
  • Subject: Re: REB: HYB: rebloom breeding
  • From: C* C* <d*@rewrite.hort.net>
  • Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 18:41:31 -0500
When reading through old articles from all over the place, for more then the past 30 years, people have been talking about breeding the preferential rebloomers (rebloom in Californai) to hardy norther rebloomers and report that they have or were going to try it. Then no reports of the results of these crosses. It is all there but I'm not going to look it up for specific details or who and where. People don't give details of their failures.
Tea Leaves is a fall cyclic rebloomer , getting fall cyclic genes from Violet Classic, and reblooms in cold zones, so is a cold climate rebloomer , like Violet Classic.
Byers made lots of rebloomers, but nothing that does well here in Zone 4. And the form from Sky Hooks is not a step forward.
Still best formed rebloomer here is Clarence ( Zurbigg 1991) One of the reasons why, is people going in wrong direction, without an understanding of how the rebloom genes work
There is nothing in the Preferential rebloomers, rebloom genes that has any value to northern rebloom. It depends on a 5 month growing season post bud set to do it's thing. So only works in climates that can provide that. And many warn climate iris just don't have genes that enable good performance in more challenging climates. 

Chuck Chapman

-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Mann <101l@rewrite.hort.net>
To: iris <iris@hort.net>
Sent: Wed, Nov 26, 2014 5:15 pm
Subject: Re: [iris] REB: HYB: rebloom breeding

Could you name at least one example?  You keep saying 'many' and 'it'
and I'm really curious as to who they were and what they tried.  I have
a feeling we aren't really disagreeing with each other, but would like
to be sure I know what you are referring to.

On 11/26/2014 2:15 PM, Chuck Chapman wrote:

and many people have  tried it.


Monty Byers introduced a lot, as did Hager.  Hagers have been weaker
growers for me in general, but Feed Back keeps trucking along, as do its 
babies.  And yes, judging from Betty's introductions and what I've seen
of Mary Lou's seedling photos and what I've seen in my own garden.

Like Betty, I'm confused about which 'preferential' rebloomers you are
talking about - there are some in the checklist that have only been
reported from zone 8/9 CA <or> Oz, but many more that were bred in zone
8/9 dry summer areas that have been reported to sporadically bloom here
and there in other zones, including wet summer or cold winter areas.

I don't think Byers used any parents that <only> rebloomed in CA or Oz,
but pretty sure he used those that rebloomed reliably in dry summer zone 
8/9 to cross with more reliable eastern cold/wet hardy rebloomers.
[well, after chasing thru the checklist, it looks like Byers <did> use
things that have been reported to only bloom in CA]


So where are the results?


Ok, now that I agree with - as long as it's just the rebloom genetics.
But I don't agree (yet) that it hasn't "advanced" the interaction of
rebloom genes with their temperature trigger requirements.  But that
would not be a cold climate advance, only a southern advance.


And any  evidence that it has advanced   the  Rebloom genetics?


I'll root through the Byers registrations, but the obvious one is Tea
Leaves.
= Sky Hooks X Violet Classic.  The registration says it starts blooming
CA in October, but it has rebloomed in Aug here. 2008 checklist reports 
it reblooming in zones 5-10, across the US.

Violet Classic is a good ol' cold climate reliable rebloomer, has given
at least one August rebloom seedling here from IMM X Violet Classic.
Only three seedlings lived, only one lived long enough to evaluate
rebloom, so no ratios, but presumably both recessive 'summer' rebloomers. ? 

Sky Hooks has been reported to rebloom in zone 9 only, CA, BC and
Germany (odd distribution, and surely the zone for BC and Germany is
just omitted (not US)).  Sky Hooks is in the ancestry of 44 registered
rebloomers, 32 by Byers.  It was introduced by Melrose Gardens in CA.
It's from Wedding Vow X Moon Mistress, both also bred in CA.  Moon
Mistress is reported to rebloom in CA, no reports for Wedding Vow.
Byers registered 7 rebloomers from Moon Mistress.

Tasco's Mariposa Skies is (Wedding Vow x Violet Miracle (cold climate
everywhere)) X Glistening Icicle (CA, MO reb).

etc

Byers used a seedling from (Cease-Fire X Skyhooks) quite a bit, not in
the rebloom checklist of course - anybody have an old Byers catalog that 
talks about the seedling?
Cease-Fire is reported to rebloom in AZ, CA, MO, TX & Netherlands, zones 
7-10

Tea Leaves has given me a number of early rebloom seedlings that are
reliable and very strong growers here - branching is awful, but it has
given me something to mix with the IMM seedlings to recapture 'summer'
rebloom phenotype.  I used it early on, have just gotten back to really
working with it.

I'm not guessing that the rebloom genes of CA rebloomers are a unique
'type' they seem to be a mix of recessive summer and other types of
rebloom (just like Zurbrigg rebloomers), most without 4 doses of the
recessive type, and with a different high temperature trigger tolerance.

I really don't know - which is why I brought it up, again.

You keep asking what benefit is there to using these things.  They have
pollen.  They are fertile.  They contribute wider form and better
substance.  Something that is in short supply here.

I'm really sorry I asked - I wasn't trying to start an argument, just
want to know who those 'many' breeders were and what they did and if
it's documented somewhere so I could see how it fits or doesn't fit with 
my experiences.

Linda Mann


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