HIST:HYB:Wine and Roses ancestry

Since David Hall did not provide more precise information than "From two
seedlings of similar coloring" in his 1963 registration, the only information
relevant would be speculation based on remarks Hall makes about his breeding
program.  WINE AND ROSES was seedling #59-26, which means this seedling
bloomed in 1959 and was selected for further review that year, as his seedling
numbers reflect the year of bloom, rather than the year the cross was made.

David Hall lived into his nineties, and the date of this registration is from
late in his life.

Hall typically made his crosses from newly blooming seedlings, so seedling
numbers usually move ahead by two-year intervals.  He also typically crossed
closely related parents.

He made the remark and was quoted in the Bulletin sometime during his active
years that he mostly stayed within his own breeding lines, rarely going
outside them.  He said that when he did so, the results were generally
disappointing.

A lot of years passed between 1942 when the first tangerine-bearded seedlings
bloomed and 1959.  The pedigree, if given in complete form, may have been
bewilderingly complex, giving the reader little actual information.  One can
just assume that the ancestry of WINE AND ROSES for the most part is the same
as that of CHERIE, more or less, just a number of generations further removed
from the roots of the line.

This still does not answer the question of where the Umbrata entered in.  If
the parents of WINE AND ROSES were both Umbrata bicolors, there is something
besides the obvious ancestors of CHANTILLY, CHERIE, MAY HALL or FROST AND
FLAME involved.

Orville Fay, if I recall correctly, said that there were a few occasions where
Hall used Fay materials.  Those were "outcrosses" that didn't go very far out,
as Fay pinks were entirely based on Hall seedlings with the additions of SNOW
FLURRY, NEW SNOW and a *pallida* diploid used for its virus resistance.  Fay's
LIPSTICK, ARCTIC FLAME, FLEETA and others are examples of the Fay pinks or
tangerine-bearded whites that included these outcrosses from the Hall
bloodlines. None of these have the Umbrata either.

I know of no occasions where Hall used any of the Utah pinks in his line.  The
reverse--the use of Hall pinks in Utah--occurred a number of times, for
example in Melba Hamblen's VALIMAR, which was from an outcross from a Hall
variety with the blue HELEN MCGREGOR, then backcrossed to Hall's PALOMINO.
It is possible Keith Keppel or Mike Lowe may have some idea where the trait
entered in. They have access to information otherwise not published on a
number of breeding lines.  I doubt, however, there is anything more about
Hall's lineages than what is noted above and in the previous post about the
roots of the line.

Neil Mogensen  z 7 western NC mountains

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