RE: Hybrid Vigor
Toby,
Certain lines of pumpkins have inexplicably produced greenies to the
surprise of their growers. Often, there is a squash line back four or five
generations that just remained recessive and hidden. Bret Hester's 611
seeds were exactly opposite. The fruit was a beautiful deep green, but its
seeds threw nothing but pumpkins...very large and ugly ones. (3 over 1000
pounds so far.)
For us greenies, the Hester 895.5 is the best green line out there right
now. You are more then welcome to some of my 507 seeds, which were the
895.5 selfed. Keep in mind that, not knowing the parentage of your fruit,
you may end up with an orange one despite your best efforts to cross in the
green. That is the crap-shoot we call genetics (when only growing one or
two plants.) Also keep in mind that your efforts are not rewarded until you
grow the seeds from the fruit you crossed. Only the mother plant gives you
the characteristics of the fruit you grew. The father introduces his
genetics for the children (seeds.) So if you grow your seeds next year, and
one of mine, and cross them...that has no influence on next year's crop. It
only affects the following year when you grow seeds from the fruit you
produced. You are on the right track though.
I hope I didn't confuse you too much. This seems to be difficult for some
people to grasp hold of, since it doesn't work exactly the same as human
genetics. (Actually, it does, but some people fail to realize that the
seeds are the children, not the fruit itself...this is a naming convention
problem that we will never overcome though.)
Again, you, or anyone else on the list, are more than welcome to my seeds.
Please send a S.A.B.P. (Self-addressed bubble pack) to the address below.
If you have some seeds of your own, I would love for you to send me some.
For those of you who have sent me seeds or requests this year (or in the
past), I plan on getting seeds out to you during my Christmas break.
-Gus Smithhisler
4281 Cleveland Avenue
Columbus, Ohio 43224
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby Atencio [m*@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 2:36 AM
To: pumpkins@hort.net
Subject: RE: Hybrid Vigor
Hi Gus
I am fairly new to the sport of pumpkin growing, but I have grown one AG so
far. I lost the parentage before I knew parentage was important... I know,
idiot rookie maneuver. I do remember that the parents were both Pumpkins
(orange) and both over 800 lbs. However, the plant I grew produced a squash
greener than a pickle. I selfed it, so I now have some isolated genes that
might be ready to cross with another green squash. I am looking for
something super green, that might add size to my seed. For the record, my
squash was not big... 176.5 lbs. But I think that was due to my rookie
care.
was your 507 super green? If so, could I trade some seeds with you, please?
Toby
"Smithhisler, Paul" <Paul.Smithhisler@dnr.state.oh.us> wrote:
Might I offer my 507 squash as a seed parent for this experiment? It has
the same genetics (895.5 Hester by self), but over 900 seeds. This seems to
be an anomaly with the 895 genetics as there have been many fruit (including
my squash from last year, 11 seeds) that have very few seeds in them. If
anyone is interested, let me know.
-Gus Smithhisler
4281 Cleveland Avenue
Columbus, Ohio 43224
-----Original Message-----
From: clarion [c*@earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 1:16 PM
To: pumpkins@hort.net
Subject: Re: Hybrid Vigor
Toby;
Your defiantly have the correct idea in mind, basically. The problem in
actually doing this kind of breeding lies in the vast number of seeds each
plant produces. Who is actually going to grow all 300 and something seeds,
take time to watch and chart the very best plants and pollinate every plant,
them do the same thing for several seasons? This would require a commercial
sized growing plot, excessive amounts of time, and a lot of documented
research.
The best thing growers can do, realistically, is do more self crosses on
future genetics. Sure, there are tons of crosses that work out well to throw
larger fruits than their parents, but selfing helps to isolate a genetic.
Anyone who has never actually thought self pollinated plants are good seeds
to
grow need to visit the AGGC and look at prodigy of self pollinated plants.
There also is a list of 2nd and 3rd generation self pollinated prodigy
fruits.
Seeing how well the self crosses fared should show the value of breeding
plants in that manner.
If there were a group of growers willing to participate in a "controlled
experiment", enough to do a true breeding experiment, then we all might have
some answers. Until such an experiment is done, growers only can breed
according to what their gut feeling tells them to do. That has worked up
until
now, so I guess "if it's not broke, don't fix it".
If there are any growers looking for a challenging side project in 2004,
might
I suggest getting the 70 or 80 people together to all grow Gadberry's 834
Squash seed [895 Hester X self]. There were only around 80 seed's I think,
and
since it probably has more stable genetics than today's orange counterparts,
that one would be a genetic best suited for such an experiment. After all,
it
just has 575 Dill and 674 Waterman for its entire genetic makeup.
Just an idea...
Marc
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I am so new to this... please tell me if I am getting this right.
After reading marc's post with the corn example, it would seem to me that if
you were really trying to isolate the gene that produces a particular trait,
you wouldn't want to cross it with ANYTHING for several generations. In
fact
you would do this:
1.Scoop the seeds our of your favorite pumpkin.
2.Plant ALL of them in one patch.
3.Self ALL of them. (SELF... not "open," not "sib")
4.select your favorite pumpkin from that patch.
5.start over at step one.
Do this until you have something consistently special. Then find somebody
else who has done the same thing, in the hope of generating additional
boosting of the desired trait. Cross pollinate your special plants with
theirs. Then begin again at step one.
Is this right?
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