Re: Selfing

To clarify a bit, as I read the story of Helmut Laemmele
on AGGC, he didn't plant all the seeds from a particular
pumpkin each year, but he did take a "representative
sample" (intentional or not) from his biggest/best
pumpkin each year and grew those seeds. And then
repeated that over a number of years.

I don't think you need to plant *all* the seeds to
improve genetics... statistics can tell us what a
representative sample might be, and since we only need
one to survive to the next generation, ten seeds maybe,
selecting the best from your current generation to move
on...

As a group this is sort of what we do, but we "mix it up"
too much, perhaps?

Anyway, back to Helmut, he personally selected the best
over a number of generations, and created and kept a
fairly pure strain. Then, Kirk Mombert crossed that with
a Holland line, creating a seed that was both good and
consistent.... that consistency may be the best feature
of the seed.

I'm just rambling on now folks, maybe I should shut up...
But one more thing that has been on my mind... I wonder
where the "statistical circle" of the seeds in a pumpkin
is... that is, say you have a seed from an 800 pound
pumpkin... given identical growing conditions, would
10 percent of them throw 1000 pounds, 20 percent through
900 pounds, 50 percent do 800 pounds, and some would do
less, etc.

* Knowing this would be key to selecting a statistical
sample to plant.

* Is this variance smaller (i.e. the fruit is more
consistent) in strains that are more pure?

Lots of questions that will be hard to answer.

Cliff




From: "Cliff Warren" <cliffrwarren@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: pumpkins@hort.net
To: pumpkins@hort.net
Subject: Re: Selfing
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 07:51:47 -0700
To isolate the desirable traits in a pumpkin you would have to plant all the
seeds out of a particular pumpkin (cross) you are interested in and take the
most desirable(color, size weight etc) and plant all the seeds from that one
and repeat the whole process again. Maybe in ten years you would have
isolated the desirable traits.
Yes, but that is kinda what Helmut Laemmele did, which
resulted in the seed that grew the 567.5!

Cliff
From: "Andrew Papez" <apapez@cogeco.ca>
Reply-To: pumpkins@hort.net
To: <pumpkins@hort.net>
Subject: Re: Selfing
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 08:41:11 -0500

Hi list,

The way they do it in corn is to take all the seeds from a cob and plant it,
then select the best cob(color, taste etc) from all those plants and then
plant all the seeds from that cob and repeat the whole process. This takes
years and we are only planting one or two seeds from each pumpkin. To
isolate the desirable traits in a pumpkin you would have to plant all the
seeds out of a particular pumpkin (cross) you are interested in and take the
most desirable(color, size weight etc) and plant all the seeds from that one
and repeat the whole process again. Maybe in ten years you would have
isolated the desirable traits. We are not currently doing that and is
impossible to isolate the genes from one or two seeds. Still a crap shoot
the way I see it.

drew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cliff Warren" <cliffrwarren@hotmail.com>
To: <pumpkins@hort.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: Selfing


> Mike and all:
>
> Great topic!
>
> I've been studying what has been said (written) by
> Nic Welty, Joe Ailts, Mike Nepereny and others.
> Here is what I understand about the F1/F2 hybrid
> theory: (note that this is theory...)
>
> * To create an F2, cross your fruit with something from the mother line.
> * F2's are created to enhance consistency.
> * A "self" or "sib" pollination qualifies as an F2.
> * Make an F1 by starting with an F2 and then crossing another line.
Ideally,
> one would hope to get some desirable characteristic from the new line.
> (Thick walls,
> nice color, etc.)
> * The worlds best seeds have had elements of this theory in their
> background, intentional or not.
>
> Note from history: which two seeds have had most
> impact? I would suggest the 935 Lloyd and 567.5 Mombert.
> Many hot seeds today, come from these lines, example:
> 723, 940 Mombert 98, etc.
>
> Each of these was created by some degree of inbreeding
> in the lines, to reduce the number of parents, keep the
> gene pool more pure and thus create consistency. Then,
> you introduce a new line. Perhaps this is where the
> concept of "hybrid vigor" comes in... not just from
> endlessly crossing, but by starting with two fairly
> pure sources and then crossing.
>
> Well anyway, I'm no expert, but any theory is fun to
> play with. I think it fits what we've seen.
>
> Take a look at the 846 Calai background. It takes
> fairly pure 567.5 Mombert genetics and crosses that
> with Lloyd, also fairly pure. That seed of course
> speaks for itself.
>
> Once again, great topic. Lets use this list!
>
> Regards, Cliff
>
>
>
> >From: Mike and Vickie Brock <vbrock@mcn.org>
> >Reply-To: pumpkins@hort.net
> >To: <pumpkins@hort.net>
> >Subject: Selfing
> >Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:56:37 -0800
> >
> >Here are some thoughts that I posted on BP.com and thought it a good
> >subject
> >to get going on both lists. So what are we seeing these days? Whats
> >working?
> >
> > Most of the hotties come from heterozygous(outbreed) parents. The idea
of
> >selfing is to isolate a gene that gives you a desired trait. It works
well
> >when you have a specific trait in mind like flavor or color. By selfing
you
> >can increase the probability of seeing the trait you want. But you can
also
> >drop traits such as vigor and disease resistance invisible traits. Of
> >course
> >the idea we want with selfing is to increase the predictability of
> >monsters.
> >I think that we are always going to be stuck with a small amount of seed
in
> >a batch that demonstrate huge and heavy and the rest somewhere in
between.
> >Why because there are many genes that contribute to that outcome and the
> >trait were looking for is so heavily influenced by the environmental
> >factors. If a gene is like a coin and the law of probability says you can
> >hit heads 50% of the time ...imagine the probability of lining up 5 coins
> >and hitting heads. So I don't see how selfing is going to work if you
don't
> >plant out the entire stock and pick the best....and do it again and again
> >what exactly are we trying to isolate large root system, triple tap roots
> >at
> >each junction...we have to be specific and all the seeds would have to be
> >treated equally........but the jury is still out...not enough data...to
> >know...MB
> >
> >Will the odds ever improve?
> >
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