Re: 2000# Pumpkin Paradox

In a message dated 98-01-18 20:30:48 EST, you write:

<< Subj:	 Re: 2000# Pumpkin Paradox
 Date:	98-01-18 20:30:48 EST
 From:	buckeye5@bright.net (John Failor)
 Sender:	owner-pumpkins@mallorn.com
 Reply-to:	pumpkins@mallorn.com
 To:	pumpkins@mallorn.com
 
 >Heres one to talk about since we are already diving into the culling
 >questions.  I've read about a few growers that have grown two or even three
 >fruit on one vine and ended up carrying in excess of 1500 pounds of fruit
 >on one vine.  What does this mean about our plant and fruit relationships?
 > I hope some people will be able to respond with some experience and maybe
 >some sort of guess as to the explanation.
 >
 >When I hear about this happening I sit back and think to myself that
 >supporting one fruit to 1000 pounds hasn't maxed out the plants ability to
 >fill fruit.   I get the feeling that there is some other limiting factor
 >that is only allowing the fruit to get so big......and that factor of
 >course is probably genetically controlled.    My theory would be that our
 >plants in general are able to produce and move enough photosynthates,
 >nutrients, and water  to make 1500-2000 pounds of fruit, but there is some
 >reason why the plants won't or can't put it all in one fruit.....at least
 >not yet!
 >
 >I welcome as much input from as many people that have any thoughts.  Even
 >some silly explanation based on something you observed could be a key to
 >the answer of the 2000# pumpkin pair-a-ducks!
 >
 >Rick >>
Rick,
   You are right. Genetic and other factors are involved in the ultimate fruit
size. Lets take the apple tree for example. Fruit thinning has been practiced
by orchard people for years. By thinning the fruit you get larger apples. Lets
say that there are 200 apples on a tree just to make up a number........each
one weighs one half pound. If we thinned all the fruit off except one, we
wouldn't get a 100 pound apple. There is a point of thinning where the size of
the apples stops increasing. Now lets apply that to pumpkins. There is just so
much Photosynthate to go around and if there are more pumpkins on the vine
than can be supported by the plant, the size of the pumpkins will be affected.
How many pumpkins can be set on a 1,000 square foot plant and how far apart
must they be in order to not affect each other? I'm not sure. I can tell you
this, I am quite sure that a 1,000 square foot plant can support 2 pumpkins if
they are on separate vines a good distance from each other. If you had the
same plant and set fruit right next to each other on the same vine...they
would affect each other. There are two phases to a pumpkins
development....cell division and cell enlargement. At the beginning of a
pumpkins development cells begin dividing, at the time of pollination , cells
begin dividing rapidly. At a certain point in a pumpkins life, cell division
slows and cell enlargement takes over. Most of the physical size and weight
gains that you see is due to cell enlargement. Large fruited varieties
probably have a longer period of cell division than a sugar pumpkin would. The
more cells, the larger the ultimate pumpkin after the enlargement phase. So
the ultimate size of your pumpkin may be cast in stone at a relatively early
stage. Is the Atlantic Giant converting to cell expansion when it is the size
of a basketball, beach ball or 80 inches in circumference? I don't know yet.
If the plant has 8 pumpkins on it, that are at the cell enlargement stage and
they are all competing for a limited amount of photosynthate, cell enlargement
will be held back. If you had (4) 600 pounders on a plant, if you thinned to 2
fruit would the two left on be over 600 pounds? Maybe. Atlantic Giants are so
variable in size and characteristics, it will be hard to prove anything. With
any experiment like this, you need control plants. The problem is that
Atlantic Giants are so variable that a conrol plant is meaningless. A control
plant would be a plant that you left alone and the other plant you experiment
with and see if your experiment makes a difference, compared to the control
plant. If you planted 5 different plants from the same seed and treated them
all the same you would see 5 different plants.....thats why comparing plants
is tough to do. We are all Atlantic Giant pumpkin researchers, quite often we
fly by the seat of our pants because there is no other choice. You still must
follow good gardening practices, hope for good weather, sweat alot, and hope
lady luck will shine on you next year.
                                        pumkinguy@aol.com
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