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Re: /schools


David,
Re > (I am not a commie...I promise)  *sniff*
Now, you know I wasn't calling you a Red Menace or anything like that!
Seriously, though, I believe there are good elements in communism and
socialism, but as a complete way of governing, no.  Capitalism, though, it
has a few not-so-good elements does work for us.

I like the fact that we can discuss such matters and not get overheated
about it.  I agree that public schools need work, just not on how to achieve
it.

Kitty

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Franzman" <dfranzma@pacbell.net>
To: <gardenchat@hort.net>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [CHAT] /schools


> Cathy, most of the folks on this list are probably pretty tired of me
> already but my take on vouchers is that you would have all the parents of
> the kids who care about their futures trying to get into a couple of the
> "good" schools leaving the poorest (who can't drive their kids across
town)
> and those who don't care going to what is left.  This I think would make
the
> matter that much worse.  Vouchers to me are a cop out for fixing what has
> really become an endemic problem.  If we know there are bad schools then
> they should be fixed not allowed to turn out thousands of kids we know
> received an inferior education.  That's something we can't ignore.
However,
> schools will never have the same quality of education until the money that
> funds them is evenly spread so that kids in poor neighborhoods get the
same
> buck for the bang.  That ain't going to happen for a long time I fear.
>
> (I am not a commie...I promise)  *sniff*
> David Franzman
> A Touch of the Tropics
> www.atouchofthetropics.net
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "cathy carpenter" <cathyc@rnet.com>
> To: <gardenchat@hort.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 7:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [CHAT] /schools
>
>
> > At risk of being strung up, I think that there is much to be said for
> > vouchers. Why shouldn't  parents decide where to send their children?
> > Especially if they are not happy with what is produced by the public
> > education system? Its called putting money where your mouth is. Why
> > should the super wealthy be the only ones to have that privilege?
> > Cathy
> > On Wednesday, May 19, 2004, at 09:54 AM, Kitty wrote:
> >
> > > I understand your theory, David.  And, I'm sorry if my reply sounded
> > > 'heated'.  Not so, just speaking up.
> > >
> > > However, if your theory were to be put into practice - which it can't
> > > be -
> > > there'd be less money to go around. I have no idea how many millions
> > > of kids
> > > are in private schools, but if they were all sent to public schools,
> > > the
> > > system would collapse.  Public schools are using the funds from taxes
> > > that
> > > pay for private kids on the public kids and still can't make ends
meet.
> > >
> > > Also, one of the great privleges we as Americans enjoy is choice.  I
> > > don't
> > > approve of home-schooling, but I do believe those parents have the
> > > right to
> > > choose that route.  I also believe that if you want special schooling
> > > for
> > > your kids - like the nutcases who enroll their kids in nursery school
> > > while
> > > they are still in the womb - you can make that choice.  To say NO to
> > > these
> > > choices and to private school simply because you think it could
improve
> > > public schools, goes against the grain of our society.  It's
> > > socialistic or
> > > maybe even communistic - both systems with good ideals and properties
> > > - that
> > > will not necessarily fix the public school problem.  Public schools
> > > must fix
> > > themselves, thus making themselves attractive, by choice, to
consumers.
> > >
> > > Also - the best and the brightest are not necessarily in private
> > > schools. W
> > > went to private schools.
> > >
> > > Kitty
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "David Franzman" <dfranzma@pacbell.net>
> > > To: <gardenchat@hort.net>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 1:14 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT] /schools
> > >
> > >
> > >> "Too broad a statement, David."
> > >>
> > >> Kitty, I don't want to get into a heated debate over what is simply
my
> > >> belief however I don't understand why your personal experience with
> > >> parochial schools makes my statement too broad.  My point was that if
> > >> we
> > >> were all sent to the same institutions of learning instead of
separate
> > >> whether for personal reasons or wealth the entire society would have
> > >> more
> > >> concern for the welfare of public education which as you must admit
> > >> turns
> > >> out far more children than private.  Therefore our schools would be
> > >> better
> > >> because there would be far more involvement by those who wield more
> > >> power
> > >> within our society.
> > >>
> > >> Nobody would argue that private institutions are bad places for
> > >> learning.
> > >> Far from it.  In fact, what they do is funnel the best and the
> > >> brightest
> > > out
> > >> of the public school system and even worse take the most powerful
> > >> people
> > > in
> > >> the country and make public education not their problem.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> David Franzman
> > >> A Touch of the Tropics
> > >> www.atouchofthetropics.net
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Kitty" <kmrsy@comcast.net>
> > >> To: <gardenchat@hort.net>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 7:48 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT] /schools
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>> I've said this all my adult life:  Private schools are the bane of
> > > this
> > >>>> country.
> > >>> Too broad a statement, David.
> > >>> Speaking from my experience of 12 years of parochial school, which
is
> > >>> private school, but not quite the private school that Bill Gate's
> > >>> kids
> > >> would
> > >>> attend.......
> > >>> I was able to receive a good education with, I believe, less of the
> > >>> interuptions you mentioned in another post.  Baby-sitting didn't
> > >>> happen
> > > in
> > >>> my classes.  Can't behave ?  Out you go.  My parents paid tuition
> > >>> for 3
> > > of
> > >>> us and we weren't well off by any standards.  All the parents that
> > >>> pay
> > >>> tuition for parochial schools get no tax break from the govt, and
yet
> > > they
> > >>> do not make use of funds that the govt has assigned for public
> > >>> schools.
> > >> For
> > >>> 12 yrs x 3, my folks paid taxes which went to public schools AND
they
> > > paid
> > >>> tuition.  This allows the public schools extra funds.  It's not our
> > > fault
> > >>> they didn't use it wisely.  If I had had kids, they too would have
> > >> attended
> > >>> parochial school.
> > >>>
> > >>> Kitty
> > >>>
> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>> From: "David Franzman" <dfranzma@pacbell.net>
> > >>> To: <gardenchat@hort.net>
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 7:11 PM
> > >>> Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT] /schools
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Melody (I'm sorry folks I realize this is a garden group and not a
> > >> soapbox
> > >>>> for political agendas) I think the problem is in the reality.  The
> > >> reality
> > >>>> is that there are far too many students in California who don't
care
> > > and
> > >>>> whose parents don't care whether they get an education or not.
Fact
> > > is
> > >>> that
> > >>>> there is only so much money and resources and the way we casually
> > > spend
> > >>>> money in this country insures a bleak future for education.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I've said this all my adult life:  Private schools are the bane of
> > > this
> > >>>> country.  They guarantee unequal education.  Send Bill Gate's and
> > > Warren
> > >>>> Buffet's kids to public schools and we wouldn't be having this
> > >> discussion
> > >>>> right now.  But as long as we don't we lose untold thousands of
> > >>>> bright
> > >>> kids
> > >>>> who don't have the resources to a good education and hence fall
> > > through
> > >>> the
> > >>>> cracks.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> David Franzman
> > >>>> A Touch of the Tropics
> > >>>> www.atouchofthetropics.net
> > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>>> From: "Melody" <mhobertm@excite.com>
> > >>>> To: <gardenchat@hort.net>
> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 2:03 AM
> > >>>> Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT] New oleander/schools
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> DF: This is the result of a poorly thought out and woefully
> > >> underfunded
> > >>>>> "No Child Left Behind Act", brought to you courtesy of our current
> > >>>>> government officials. In order to continue qualifying for federal
> > >>>>> financial aid for school districts, each school must meet grade
> > > level
> > >>>>> requirements, you know. Well, if a certain percentage of the
> > > children
> > >>>>> can't make it and that prevents the school from getting funding,
> > > then
> > >>>>> what is the logical step? To reduce the level of difficulty of
what
> > > is
> > >>>>> being taught to the lowest common denominator, i.e. dumbing down.
> > >>>>> In
> > >>>>> it's purest form, NCLB would be a godsend to the children of
> > >>>>> America...teaching them to reach for the highest standards. In
it's
> > >>>>> current bastardized version, it's a nightmare! Political action,
> > >>>>> though...the strength of character to stand up for what you
believe
> > >>>>> in...is the only thing that will change this unfortunate course of
> > >>>>> action our elected officials have embarked upon. Write or call
your
> > >>>>> local federal and state legislators and demand that they fully
fund
> > >> the
> > >>>>> NCLB act. Okay...off the soapbox now...sorry, folks!
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Melody, IA (Z 5/4)
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious."
> > >>>>> --Albert Einstein
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>  --- On Mon 05/17, David Franzman < dfranzma@pacbell.net > wrote:
> > >>>>> From: David Franzman [mailto: dfranzma@pacbell.net]
> > >>>>> To: gardenchat@hort.net
> > >>>>> Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:41:32 -0700
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: Re: [CHAT] New oleander/schools
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> No, no, no Pam! It's "Can I supersize that for you!" Man, could I
> > > tell
> > >>>>> you<br>stories about my kids school. They watch more movies than
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>> attendants at<br>the Sundance Movie Festival. What's worse is that
> > > not
> > >>>>> only are most of the<br>movies out of context with the class but
> > > many
> > >> of
> > >>>>> them are...ugh...cartoons.<br>Now are we talking about an
> > >>>>> elementary
> > >>>>> school? Nope! High school. The<br>coup d' grace was when my
> > >>>>> daughter
> > >>>>> came home from school and she told me<br>that they watched, in
> > > Spanish
> > >>>>> class, a Flintstones cartoon movie...IN<br>ENGLISH! Oh, it did
have
> > >>>>> Spanish subtitles. The schools are dumbing down<br>our kids and I
> > > find
> > >>>>> it repugnant.<br><br>David Franzman<br>A Touch of the
> > >>>>> Tropics<br>www.atouchofthetropics.net<br>----- Original
> > > Message -----
> > >>>>> <br>From: <gardenqueen@academicplanet.com><br>To:
> > >>>>> <gardenchat@hort.net><br>Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 7:35
> > >> PM<br>Subject:
> > >>>>> Re: Re: [CHAT] New oleander/schools<br><br><br>> Agreed. I've seen
> > >> what
> > >>>>> the local public schools produce here - you want<br>fries w/ that?
> > >>>>> Appalling.<br>><br>> Pam Evans<br>> Kemp, TX<br>> zone 8A<br>>
> > >>>>> -----
> > >>>>> Original Message -----<br>> From: james singer<br>> Sent:
5/17/2004
> > >>>>> 4:24:57 PM<br>> To: gardenchat@hort.net<br>> Subject: Re: [CHAT]
> > >>>>> New
> > >>>>> oleander<br>><br>> > Yes, they are. And I think the Montessori
> > >>>>> environment is perfect to<br>> > bring out their curiosity. I
think
> > >> the
> > >>>>> best part--that older children<br>> > have responsibilities in the
> > >>>>> education of younger children--encourages<br>> > a kind of
> > >> intellectual
> > >>>>> development that simply does not occur in other<br>> > settings.
> > >>>>> And
> > > I
> > >>>>> think that is why a high percentage of Montessori<br>> > graduates
> > >>>>> succeed at university.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > On Monday, May 17,
> > >>>>> 2004,
> > >> at
> > >>>>> 09:04 AM, Zemuly@aol.com wrote:<br>> ><br>> > > In a message dated
> > >>>>> 5/17/2004 4:08:07 AM Central Standard Time,<br>> > >
> > >>>>> jsinger@igc.org
> > >>>>> writes:<br>> > > Ms. Fatma teaches the primary grades in a
> > > Montessori
> > >>>>> school.<br>> > > I volunteer with that same age group at our local
> > >>>>> Montessori school.<br>> > > That<br>> > > age is the gre
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> atest. They are adorable and so eager to learn.<br>> > > zem<br>>
>
> > >>>>>> <br>> > >
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> > >> <br>>
> > >>>>>>> Support hort.net -- join the hort.net fund drive!<br>> > >
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Jim<br>>
> > >>
> > >>>>> Southwest Florida<br>> > Zone 10<br>> > 27.0 N, 82.4 W<br>> ><br>>
> > >>>>> >
> > >>>>
> > >>>
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